EV car thread?

[Bus Driver]

It's not the full EV the wife wants. But, we are both leaning toward a 2023 Prius.

 

[Olsonist]

I'm getting a 2013 Leaf SL in the iconic ocean blue and then modernizing it with a 62 kWh battery pack, OVMS, CarPlay, LED swaps, .... All up, it'll be around $25k with 230 miles of range which is not so different from my S at 255. BTW, I'm passing on the 160 or 110 kW inverter upgrade on my EV mechanics advice.

That's about half the price of a Y. I've had about 8 years of S ownership and I am at this point very familiar with Tesla. What I like about my S is its range and Superchargers. Otherwise every design feature seems to have been crafted to please Elon and not me. Elon Musk ain't Steve Jobs who had a masterful design sense. The Y seems a bit of a departure but not enough. I don't want FSD and I don't want to pay for FSD hardware. I don't need sub 5, 4, 3 second 0-60 times. The S has a half decent backup camera and sensors. The SL has AroundView with four cameras. I park a lot more than I launch.

 

[veni vidi vici]

It's not the full EV the wife wants. But, we are both leaning toward a 2023 Prius.

View attachment 589503

I am waiting for a call from the local dealer to see and sit in a Prius …. goes back to the visibility coming from years of SUV , we had a 80 VW Rabbit diesel so I guess we could go small again. The new Prius design is supposed to be slick .

 

[Liquid]

25 years in and Toyota finally decided to make a good looking Prius!

 

[Bus Driver]

25 years in and Toyota finally decided to make a good looking Prius!

Yep. Me likey. So does my wife.

 

[Liquid]

If the hood emblem were 1' lower to the ground, it could be the hood and windshield of a supercar with that continuous slope and she has those rear hips that r hot these days!

It's actually a good looking car from Toyota! Who'd a thunk it.... Who's the new hire?

0 - 60 in 7.1 secs isn't bad either for a pimped Prius at less than $40K with 'AWD'!?

 

[veni vidi vici]

Just not nearly ready for prime time

 

[Talchotali]

Looking into a mirror, backwards-ly

​

Car review by electric car owner (courtesy of Geoff.Greer.fm):​

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08 Feb 2023​

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I recently purchased a internal combustion engine vehicle. This car is interesting because instead of running on electricity, it is powered by a combustible liquid called gasoline. The vehicle has an engine that mixes the gasoline with oxygen from the air, ignites the mixture, and uses the resulting combustion to push the car forward. I don’t fully understand the details of how it works, but this difference in propulsion technology totally changes the experience of owning and operating a vehicle.​

​

After taking delivery of the car, my first hurdle was getting it to do anything. I opened the door (the handles are very prominent), sat in the driver’s seat, and… nothing happened. No screen showed any messages. The climate control didn’t turn on. The car seemed dead. I pressed the accelerator (Mazda calls this the “gas” pedal) but again, nothing. I called their support line and quickly figured out the issue: Unlike a normal car, a gas car needs to be “started”. Apparently it would be wasteful and expensive to keep the gasoline engine running all the time, so you’re only supposed to run the engine if you’re moving the vehicle. The starting process is pretty painless: You insert your key into a slot on the side of the steering column, push the clutch pedal (more on that later), then turn the key and hold it for a second or two. I succeeded on the first try, causing the car to jump to life and emit all kinds of crazy noises. Imagine if a steam locomotive had a baby with a machine gun. That’s the sort of noise that comes out of a gas car. It evokes both excitement and concern.​

​

My next bit of confusion was regarding the climate control. At first I thought it was broken, but it turned out that a gas car’s heating system is unique. Instead of using electricity to heat up coils or pump heat into the cabin, it uses the engine’s excess heat to warm the cabin. This means that the cabin won’t get warm until the engine has been running long enough to heat up. This only takes a few minutes, but on a cold morning it can feel like an eternity.​

​

With the engine running and the cabin warm, it was finally time for me to get moving. That’s when I ran into another quirk. Unlike normal electric motors, gasoline engines have a narrow range of RPMs that they can operate at. Too slow and the combustion reaction can’t self-sustain. Too fast and the engine explodes. To get around this limitation they use a transmission with multiple gears, sort of like a bicycle. The lower gears are for when you start moving. As you gain speed, you shift into higher gears to avoid hitting the engine’s RPM limit. This process of shifting gears involves careful coordination of the gas pedal, the clutch pedal (an extra pedal to the left of the brake pedal), and the shifter knob. I won’t get into the details, but shifting gears is definitely a skill that must be learned. Shifting gears can be fun in the right circumstance, but it can also be tedious and frustrating, especially in stop-and-go traffic.​

​

After lots of practice and profanity, I got back home and turned off the car. Again this step is unusual, but it’s necessary to save fuel. It was quite easy, as it was basically the reverse of starting the car: You turn the key in the opposite direction and remove it. The car became silent, so I got out and went inside to make dinner.​

​

The next morning I tried to start the car but nothing happened. Troubleshooting took a while, but I eventually figured it out: A gasoline car needs gasoline and electricity to run! Apparently the headlights didn’t automatically turn off after I left the car. This meant that the car’s tiny battery lost its charge and couldn’t turn the gasoline engine on. What a pain! To add insult to injury, the car lacks a standard charging port. I couldn’t just hook up an extension cord to charge it. I had to get someone else with a gas car to stop next to my stranded car, then pop both hoods and connect some giant alligator clips to both cars’ batteries, and then run the working car long enough to charge the dead battery. It gets worse. If you mess up this “jumper cable” configuration, the battery can explode and send acid everywhere. This is ridiculously unsafe, especially considering that the battery is so close to extremely flammable gasoline. I can only imagine how many of these vehicles would catch fire if they were common. Hopefully firefighters are trained in how to extinguish this unique type of fire.​

​

Oh and when you pop the hood you’ll notice another problem: there is no storage! The gasoline engine is massive. It occupies the entire front of the vehicle, leaving no room for luggage or groceries. You’ll have to fit all of your stuff in the trunk. It’s absurd that the owner’s manual neglected to mention this.​

​

Refueling was a mixed bag. Whenever I parked in my garage, I had to suppress the urge to plug the car in. Gasoline is only available at special stations, and it is prohibitively expensive to get a gasoline line installed in your home. So unlike a normal car, you don’t wake up every morning with full range. The only way to add range is to go to gas stations. These are similar to fast charging stations, but smelly and more dangerous. I certainly wouldn’t want to live near one. The stations require you to turn the engine off while fueling, meaning you can’t listen to music or otherwise entertain yourself. There is one upside: refueling is very quick. After I started the gas pump, I went to the bathroom and grabbed a snack. By the time I got back it was already done! A couple of other drivers were giving me dirty looks for bogarting the pump, so I quickly put the nozzle back and drove away. I was surprised that there was no interlock to prevent the car from moving while refueling. Maybe it’s intentional to allow for in-motion refueling in the future.​

​

The speed of refueling does help offset the lack of at-home gas pumps, but the dependence on gas stations gives me a lot of anxiety. What if I’m in the middle of nowhere and can’t reach a station before I run out of fuel? What if the station runs out of gas? With a normal car, I can plug in anywhere there is electricity. Even a standard appliance socket can add enough range to get to a fast charging station. But a gas car needs gasoline to move. If you’re too far from a fueling station, you have to have someone bring you gas. If that’s not an option, then you need to call a tow truck.​

​

After using a gas car for a while, I do find some aspects appealing. For one, it’s an engineering marvel. The machinery that harnesses combustion energy is ridiculously complicated. It’s amazing that the thing works at all. The word that comes to my mind after driving a gas car is “primal”. All of your senses are engaged: the sound and vibration of the engine; the smell of volatile chemicals and exhaust; the nagging reminder that you are speeding around with a tank full of napalm. Some may find it terrifying; others (such as myself) find it exhilarating.​

​

But no matter how enjoyable a gas car is at its best, it’s just not compelling for daily use. Compared to the status quo a gas car is inconvenient, slow, noisy, smelly, and dangerous. I think a few enthusiasts and hipsters will enjoy tooling around in these things, and rich people might have one for special occasions (along with their horses and sailboats), but the vast majority of people are better served with a normal car. I doubt these combustion vehicles will ever be popular.​

 

[veni vidi vici]

Looking into a mirror, backwards-ly

​

Car review by electric car owner (courtesy of Geoff.Greer.fm):​

​

​

08 Feb 2023​

​

I recently purchased a internal combustion engine vehicle. This car is interesting because instead of running on electricity, it is powered by a combustible liquid called gasoline. The vehicle has an engine that mixes the gasoline with oxygen from the air, ignites the mixture, and uses the resulting combustion to push the car forward. I don’t fully understand the details of how it works, but this difference in propulsion technology totally changes the experience of owning and operating a vehicle.​

​

After taking delivery of the car, my first hurdle was getting it to do anything. I opened the door (the handles are very prominent), sat in the driver’s seat, and… nothing happened. No screen showed any messages. The climate control didn’t turn on. The car seemed dead. I pressed the accelerator (Mazda calls this the “gas” pedal) but again, nothing. I called their support line and quickly figured out the issue: Unlike a normal car, a gas car needs to be “started”. Apparently it would be wasteful and expensive to keep the gasoline engine running all the time, so you’re only supposed to run the engine if you’re moving the vehicle. The starting process is pretty painless: You insert your key into a slot on the side of the steering column, push the clutch pedal (more on that later), then turn the key and hold it for a second or two. I succeeded on the first try, causing the car to jump to life and emit all kinds of crazy noises. Imagine if a steam locomotive had a baby with a machine gun. That’s the sort of noise that comes out of a gas car. It evokes both excitement and concern.​

​

My next bit of confusion was regarding the climate control. At first I thought it was broken, but it turned out that a gas car’s heating system is unique. Instead of using electricity to heat up coils or pump heat into the cabin, it uses the engine’s excess heat to warm the cabin. This means that the cabin won’t get warm until the engine has been running long enough to heat up. This only takes a few minutes, but on a cold morning it can feel like an eternity.​

​

With the engine running and the cabin warm, it was finally time for me to get moving. That’s when I ran into another quirk. Unlike normal electric motors, gasoline engines have a narrow range of RPMs that they can operate at. Too slow and the combustion reaction can’t self-sustain. Too fast and the engine explodes. To get around this limitation they use a transmission with multiple gears, sort of like a bicycle. The lower gears are for when you start moving. As you gain speed, you shift into higher gears to avoid hitting the engine’s RPM limit. This process of shifting gears involves careful coordination of the gas pedal, the clutch pedal (an extra pedal to the left of the brake pedal), and the shifter knob. I won’t get into the details, but shifting gears is definitely a skill that must be learned. Shifting gears can be fun in the right circumstance, but it can also be tedious and frustrating, especially in stop-and-go traffic.​

​

After lots of practice and profanity, I got back home and turned off the car. Again this step is unusual, but it’s necessary to save fuel. It was quite easy, as it was basically the reverse of starting the car: You turn the key in the opposite direction and remove it. The car became silent, so I got out and went inside to make dinner.​

​

The next morning I tried to start the car but nothing happened. Troubleshooting took a while, but I eventually figured it out: A gasoline car needs gasoline and electricity to run! Apparently the headlights didn’t automatically turn off after I left the car. This meant that the car’s tiny battery lost its charge and couldn’t turn the gasoline engine on. What a pain! To add insult to injury, the car lacks a standard charging port. I couldn’t just hook up an extension cord to charge it. I had to get someone else with a gas car to stop next to my stranded car, then pop both hoods and connect some giant alligator clips to both cars’ batteries, and then run the working car long enough to charge the dead battery. It gets worse. If you mess up this “jumper cable” configuration, the battery can explode and send acid everywhere. This is ridiculously unsafe, especially considering that the battery is so close to extremely flammable gasoline. I can only imagine how many of these vehicles would catch fire if they were common. Hopefully firefighters are trained in how to extinguish this unique type of fire.​

​

Oh and when you pop the hood you’ll notice another problem: there is no storage! The gasoline engine is massive. It occupies the entire front of the vehicle, leaving no room for luggage or groceries. You’ll have to fit all of your stuff in the trunk. It’s absurd that the owner’s manual neglected to mention this.​

​

Refueling was a mixed bag. Whenever I parked in my garage, I had to suppress the urge to plug the car in. Gasoline is only available at special stations, and it is prohibitively expensive to get a gasoline line installed in your home. So unlike a normal car, you don’t wake up every morning with full range. The only way to add range is to go to gas stations. These are similar to fast charging stations, but smelly and more dangerous. I certainly wouldn’t want to live near one. The stations require you to turn the engine off while fueling, meaning you can’t listen to music or otherwise entertain yourself. There is one upside: refueling is very quick. After I started the gas pump, I went to the bathroom and grabbed a snack. By the time I got back it was already done! A couple of other drivers were giving me dirty looks for bogarting the pump, so I quickly put the nozzle back and drove away. I was surprised that there was no interlock to prevent the car from moving while refueling. Maybe it’s intentional to allow for in-motion refueling in the future.​

​

The speed of refueling does help offset the lack of at-home gas pumps, but the dependence on gas stations gives me a lot of anxiety. What if I’m in the middle of nowhere and can’t reach a station before I run out of fuel? What if the station runs out of gas? With a normal car, I can plug in anywhere there is electricity. Even a standard appliance socket can add enough range to get to a fast charging station. But a gas car needs gasoline to move. If you’re too far from a fueling station, you have to have someone bring you gas. If that’s not an option, then you need to call a tow truck.​

​

After using a gas car for a while, I do find some aspects appealing. For one, it’s an engineering marvel. The machinery that harnesses combustion energy is ridiculously complicated. It’s amazing that the thing works at all. The word that comes to my mind after driving a gas car is “primal”. All of your senses are engaged: the sound and vibration of the engine; the smell of volatile chemicals and exhaust; the nagging reminder that you are speeding around with a tank full of napalm. Some may find it terrifying; others (such as myself) find it exhilarating.​

​

But no matter how enjoyable a gas car is at its best, it’s just not compelling for daily use. Compared to the status quo a gas car is inconvenient, slow, noisy, smelly, and dangerous. I think a few enthusiasts and hipsters will enjoy tooling around in these things, and rich people might have one for special occasions (along with their horses and sailboats), but the vast majority of people are better served with a normal car. I doubt these combustion vehicles will ever be popular.​

Clever

 

[veni vidi vici]

 

[Talchotali]

Not a big fan of the 'Y' - whenever I see one (every 15 seconds) it's styling reminds me of a 21st century evolution of a East German Tribant - plain and unfinished. However, an impressive feat to outsell the top Toyota and VW model by a car company that didn't exist at the start of the 21st Century.

Courtesy of Electrek Blog:

Tesla Model Y is now the world’s best-selling car, first EV to do so​

Jameson Dow | May 25 2023 - 1:17 pm PT ​

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The Tesla Model Y was the world’s best-selling car in Q1 2023, marking the first time ever that an EV has achieved this feat, according to industry analyst JATO Dynamics.​

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Model Y sales have been growing around the world for the last few years, putting the car on the trajectory to become the world’s best-selling vehicle. The feat was first predicted even before the car came to market, as Tesla thought the car could see up to a million units of demand per year.​

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It was an ambitious goal at the time, with many considering it another example of an “optimistic” Tesla prediction, but last year Tesla said the Model Y was on track to become the world’s best-selling car in 2023.​

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Last year, the Model Y was the best-selling vehicle in Europe and California, the fourth best-selling in China despite China’s different tastes and model availability compared to the rest of the world, and was on the US top ten list but significantly behind several trucks and SUVs. These performances made it the third-best selling car worldwide.​

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But now, it looks like Tesla’s #1 sales prediction has come true. The Model Y has dethroned the Toyota Corolla as the world’s best-selling car in Q1 and looks like it may well maintain this position for the full year.​

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JATO Dynamics analyst Felipe Munoz compiled the data for Motor1, showing that the Model Y had 267,200 sales in Q1, according to data from 53 markets and projections/estimates for the rest of the world. This put it ahead of the Corolla at 256,400 sales for the same period and significantly ahead of the other top-five cars, the Hilux, RAV4, and Camry, all from Toyota.​

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While we don’t know if this placing will continue for the rest of the year, Model Y sales have been continually growing, whereas Corolla sales are trending slightly downward. One model is new and based on new technology, and the other is an old standard – though the current iteration of both models came out in a similar time frame, 2018 for the Corolla and 2019 for Model Y.​

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And given Tesla’s massive price cuts this year on Model Y, this will surely make the car accessible to more people compared to 2022.​

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Indeed, Model Y sales are already growing compared to last year. In 2022, Tesla had two of the top ten cars in the world, with Model Y achieving 759k sales. That gives it an average quarterly run rate of 189k, and this year’s Q1 number is a significant increase from that.​

​

If Model Y continues at this rate or sales continue to grow at all for the rest of this year, it will exit 2023 with over 1 million sales. The only other vehicle in the world to sell 1 million units last year was the Toyota Corolla, at 1.12 million. So it might be close at year’s end, but we think it’s likely that Model Y will maintain its position.​

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The achievement is even more impressive given Model Y’s pricing and availability. While the Model Y does have broad availability in the world’s largest markets, the Corolla is available everywhere. JATO’s analysis combined all localizations (Corolla, Levin, Allion, Lingshang) and body styles (sedan, hatchback, wagon) of the Corolla model across the world to come up with its sales number.​

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And despite recent price cuts, the Model Y at ~$40k (after credits) is still significantly more expensive than a base-model Corolla at $21k. Higher prices generally restrict the addressable market, and while total cost of ownership is lower for EVs, the Corolla can still claim a TCO advantage over the vehicle that is now nevertheless beating it for market share.​

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Electrek’s Take​

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While the data has looked positive so far this year, this is the first confirmation by an industry analyst that we’ve seen of the Model Y’s position. We expected this would happen, and now it has, at least for Q1.​

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For those of us who have been in the electric game for a long time, we’ve had to hear a whole lot of people tell us that EVs are a fad, that traditional automakers will eventually wake up and dominate the market, that EVs are the “future” (not the present), and that the “demand isn’t there” – this quote specifically from Toyota, the company that has just been dethroned.​

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Well, here we are. An EV is presently the best-selling vehicle in the world. Not just in California, not just in Europe, but everywhere.​

 

[Olsonist]

I like the Y's styling or rather its lack of it. In fact, I'm kind of bored with car design. What I like about the Y is that it's a really nice mid-sized SUV.

What I don't like about Tesla in general, besides Elon, is that I could give a fuck about full self driving. I don't believe it will happen soon. I don't want to pay for its crap on my car and then pay more to use it. I don't want it should it show up. What I do want is traffic aware cruise control and ultrasonic sensors, radar + all around cameras for parking. These are very standard, well tested and cheap parts.

Otherwise, FSD makes the Y too expensive for crap I don't want. Also, if I want CarPlay, give me CarPlay.

 

[veni vidi vici]

I can sell my 2016 4Runner Trail for $3500 less than I bought it for and would love to buy Rav4 Hybrid or possibly a Prius. I think Toyota is going to start cranking out cars again in the US . They have been playing with the supply and keeping the prices high and floor plan and associated costs with large on lot inventory low. I think that will turn back to normal and the high prices used cars command slip . I/we would have to go single car about 6 months to time both ends of the market, tempting me to sell.
Hybrid is the answer for the transition into full EV, IMO

 

[Bus Driver]

Hmmmm.

The easiest way to get a $7,500 tax credit for an electric vehicle? Consider leasing.​

 

[billy backstay]

Hmmmm.

The easiest way to get a $7,500 tax credit for an electric vehicle? Consider leasing.​

That's quite attractive, but last time I checked even used EV's in southeast CT and environs were selling way above MSRP, and I assume leasing is the same? I've reluctantly concluded that driving 10 year old or older vehicles is probably better for ones carbon footprint than a brand new ride......

 

[IStream]

Update: 2100 miles on the Bolt EUV. "Spent" $47 on electricity to do it, though we didn't literally spend it because our excess solar production covered it.

About 95% of those miles came at the expense of miles we would've put on our minivan, short trips mostly, so ~10mpg. That's about 200 gallons of gas not burned and about $900 not spent.

We don't really drive much, maybe 10K miles per year total, so saving money on fuel wasn't a big purchase driver but damn, this is real money.

 

[gptyk]

I've got about 3K miles on my bolt, 'fuel' use about the same as IStream.

I'll spend $0 on oil changes over the life of the car.
I'll never replace the brakes (regen handles most of it)
The transmission will never break because there isn't one.

EVs have other advantages too.

 

[veni vidi vici]

I've got about 3K miles on my bolt, 'fuel' use about the same as IStream.

I'll spend $0 on oil changes over the life of the car.
I'll never replace the breaks (regen handles most of it)
The transmission will never break because there isn't one.

EVs have other advantages too.

With ALL the mechanical stuff not needed in a EV they should be dramatically cheaper to build, thus dramatically cheaper to buy

 

[boomer]

Update: 2100 miles on the Bolt EUV. "Spent" $47 on electricity to do it, though we didn't literally spend it because our excess solar production covered it.

About 95% of those miles came at the expense of miles we would've put on our minivan, short trips mostly, so ~10mpg. That's about 200 gallons of gas not burned and about $900 not spent.

We don't really drive much, maybe 10K miles per year total, so saving money on fuel wasn't a big purchase driver but damn, this is real money.

^^^ The benefits of a reasonable commute distance wise.

After I retired 12 years ago, my driving went from huge numbers to 10,000 a year, then fell to 7,000 in a couple years, then fell to about 6,000 a year, then fell to 5,000 in 2019. With the pandemic if fell to a little over 3000 a year, and is still about 3000 a year, that's one fill up every two months. I just drive one car.

My wife drove about 24,000 - 32,000 a year average over the past 50 years, usually in 2-3 cars. My wife who gets out a bit more then I during and since the pandemic, still averages about 10-12,000 a year, that's about 20-24 fillups or about two fillups a month.

First owning a Telsa was kaboshed by the little lady - nothing to do with her dislike of Musk, it's about economics and her feelings about whether it's green enough or not... Yesterday, I showed my wife that nicely designed 2023 Prius, showing her how inexpensive they are to buy. While she liked the design, it isn't happening, we don't drive enough to warrant getting one. To her, it's more "green" to keep driving our old vehicles.

Later at dinner, I asked "how about when we turn 80 or 85, could we buy it then? She says, "I probably won't be driving when I'm 85". I reply, "You have clients who drove into their 90s, and one who drove till she was a 103, and your in better shape then when they were your age - you'll probably live to a hundred. Besides, they'll have the self-driving feature mastered by then." Looks like we're not getting a EV now or until we're forced to....I guess I'll just have to drool over a EV for now. Despite all that, I feel blessed daily, that I married a thrifty lady.

 

[IStream]

My wife is thrifty too, at least on the big stuff. I'm definitely in your wife's camp on driving the wheels off a car you've already got versus buying a new one, even if it's more efficient to operate.

In our case, we needed a car anyway so it made sense to go EV and we went with the smallest one that would do the job. Having owned an EV for a few months now, I will never buy another ICE car but we will keep the old ICE minivan for long trips and large hauling chores. By the time it dies and needs to be replaced, I figure there'll be plenty of EVs that have the range, charging speed, and capacity to do what the van does.