F101

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
No specs like length, beam on F101.com website unless I missed them. Fairly high takeoff speed considering that the worlds first foiling keelboats take off in around 5 knots wind and the Whisper cat 5 knots. Target price 15,000 pounds......

http://www.foiling101.com/

DESIGN
Long central hull gets the rudder and main foil further apart, removing some of the limitations and bad habits that other foiling boats suffer from.
All carbon construction: main hull, foils, floats, beams, 2 piece mast.
Very simple, well thought out control systems.
All up weight: 80 kg
Sail area: 8.5m2 main + 7m2 gennaker
Target crew weight range: 70-120 kg
Take off wind speed: 8kts
Target boat speed range: 10-25kts



20ijse0.png

 
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No specs like length, beam on F101.com website unless I missed them. Fairly high takeoff speed considering that the worlds first foiling keelboats take off in around 5 knots wind and the Whisper cat 5 knots. Target price 15,000 pounds......

http://www.foiling101.com/

DESIGN

Long central hull gets the rudder and main foil further apart, removing some of the limitations and bad habits that other foiling boats suffer from.

All carbon construction: main hull, foils, floats, beams, 2 piece mast.

Very simple, well thought out control systems.

All up weight: 80 kg

Sail area: 8.5m2 main + 7m2 gennaker

Target crew weight range: 70-120 kg

Take off wind speed: 8kts

Target boat speed range: 10-25kts

20ijse0.png
I saw that, but funny no length, looks north of 14 foot by my reckoning. Foiling looks very similar to the laser system with wand on the main foil. The beams are connected low down on the floats which is very odd, the beams will be in the water before you have much buoyancy from the floats.

Interesting times lots of people developing a foiler for the average Joe.

 

teknologika

Anarchist
748
1
So the foiling 101 is the latest in a long line of one design foilers trying to be the next laser.

Some feel that they need to take to bashing the moth class as a way to sell boats. Sell your product on it's own merits and stop making up lies. For example ... the pitch control claim with a foil based wand. It makes construction easier, but it makes the boat worse from the point of view of pitch control.

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
So the foiling 101 is the latest in a long line of one design foilers trying to be the next laser.

Some feel that they need to take to bashing the moth class as a way to sell boats. Sell your product on it's own merits and stop making up lies. For example ... the pitch control claim with a foil based wand. It makes construction easier, but it makes the boat worse from the point of view of pitch control.
Wrong, dead wrong. Wands that sense altitude near the CG of the boat are used on the Rave, Osprey, Skat, and Whisper , Laser and F101. There is no chance of pitch coupling with altitude in such an arrangement .

The specs have been updated to reflect length and beam:

DESIGN

  • Long central hull gets the rudder and main foil further apart, removing some of the limitations and bad habits that other foiling boats suffer from.
  • All carbon construction: main hull, foils, floats, beams, 2 piece mast.
  • Very simple, well thought out control systems.
  • All up weight: 80 kg
  • Length 5m
  • Beam 2.55m
  • Sail area: 8.5m2 main + 7m2 gennaker
  • Target crew weight range: 70-120 kg
  • Take off wind speed: 8kts
  • Target boat speed range: 10-25kts

SO WHY THREE HULLS?Many Moths use buoyancy in the wings to help sailors get to grips with the boat, but this buoyancy is limited to helping the helm recover the boat from a capsize and does nothing to prevent the capsize in the first place. The F101 Tri configuration allows for a slender hull with enough length to prevent pitch poling, while at the same time creating a stable platform to allow novices to get out on the water with no previous foiling experience. The super slender wave-piercing outer hulls are set at an optimum angle to initiate foiling - simply sit on the windward hull, which will cant the boat to windward, then sheet in and take off! If the F101 does pitch forward, the main hull is designed to recover straight back onto the foils; the hull’s additional length keeps the angle of incidence shallow. Its rocker is matched to the angle of incidence – and the additional buoyancy forwards help lift the bow. The benefit applies to the outer hulls too - if the F101 falls in to windward, the windward hull lifts the boat back onto the foils. If the boat falls in to leeward there is enough buoyancy to prevent a capsize and the boat is quickly back on the foils.



WHY IS THE WAND ON THE TRAILING EDGE OF THE MAIN FOIL?



[SIZE=11pt] The F101 has its control wand fixed to the back of the trailing edge of the main foil, as opposed to the mounted at the bow which is where Moth’s mount the foil. There are a number of advantages to the trailing edge position, the most important of which is that the wand measures the ride height of the boat irrespective of pitch. This important factor can help to eliminate the porpoise effect which many beginners experience when learning to sail a Moth. [/SIZE]



 
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Bill5

Super Anarchist
2,682
2,150
Western Canada
Looks pretty sweet! $18,000 or so (plus shipping I would assume) is getting up there. Clearly not the same target as the Laser, Aero or UFO.

 

teknologika

Anarchist
748
1
So the foiling 101 is the latest in a long line of one design foilers trying to be the next laser.

Some feel that they need to take to bashing the moth class as a way to sell boats. Sell your product on it's own merits and stop making up lies. For example ... the pitch control claim with a foil based wand. It makes construction easier, but it makes the boat worse from the point of view of pitch control.
Wrong, dead wrong. Wands that sense altitude near the CG of the boat are used on the Rave, Osprey, Skat, and Whisper , Laser and F101. There is no chance of pitch coupling with altitude in such an arrangement .

The specs have been updated to reflect length and beam:

DESIGN

  • Long central hull gets the rudder and main foil further apart, removing some of the limitations and bad habits that other foiling boats suffer from.
  • All carbon construction: main hull, foils, floats, beams, 2 piece mast.
  • Very simple, well thought out control systems.
  • All up weight: 80 kg
  • Length 5m
  • Beam 2.55m
  • Sail area: 8.5m2 main + 7m2 gennaker
  • Target crew weight range: 70-120 kg
  • Take off wind speed: 8kts
  • Target boat speed range: 10-25kts


SO WHY THREE HULLS?

Many Moths use buoyancy in the wings to help sailors get to grips with the boat, but this buoyancy is limited to helping the helm recover the boat from a capsize and does nothing to prevent the capsize in the first place. The F101 Tri configuration allows for a slender hull with enough length to prevent pitch poling, while at the same time creating a stable platform to allow novices to get out on the water with no previous foiling experience. The super slender wave-piercing outer hulls are set at an optimum angle to initiate foiling - simply sit on the windward hull, which will cant the boat to windward, then sheet in and take off! If the F101 does pitch forward, the main hull is designed to recover straight back onto the foils; the hulls additional length keeps the angle of incidence shallow. Its rocker is matched to the angle of incidence and the additional buoyancy forwards help lift the bow. The benefit applies to the outer hulls too - if the F101 falls in to windward, the windward hull lifts the boat back onto the foils. If the boat falls in to leeward there is enough buoyancy to prevent a capsize and the boat is quickly back on the foils.

WHY IS THE WAND ON THE TRAILING EDGE OF THE MAIN FOIL?

 

 

The F101 has its control wand fixed to the back of the trailing edge of the main foil, as opposed to the mounted at the bow which is where Moths mount the foil. There are a number of advantages to the trailing edge position, the most important of which is that the wand measures the ride height of the boat irrespective of pitch. This important factor can help to eliminate the porpoise effect which many beginners experience when learning to sail a Moth.

Oh sorry Doug. You read it on the internet so it must be true. My apologies.

 

17mika

Anarchist
949
226
Milan, Italy
WHY IS THE WAND ON THE TRAILING EDGE OF THE MAIN FOIL?



The F101 has its control wand fixed to the back of the trailing edge of the main foil, as opposed to the mounted at the bow which is where Moths mount the foil. There are a number of advantages to the trailing edge position, the most important of which is that the wand measures the ride height of the boat irrespective of pitch. This important factor can help to eliminate the porpoise effect which many beginners experience when learning to sail a Moth.
Just to be clear, this is bs, and anybody who has ever tried a moth or a similar boat knows it.
All moths now have a big wand/mainfoil separation (m2s will follow in few months) both because it makes the boat a lot more pitch stable and because it gives the flap more time to react to the waves.

F101 laser erc solution is just an easier solution to build.

 
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Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
"time to react to the waves"? Seems like there must be advantages to the bowsprit wand but I can't see this as one of them? The Rave, Whisper, Osprey, Skat and maybe Laser and F101 wands work perfectly at their midship position.

If the tip of the wand touches the water 5' in front of the main foil

-at 10 knots the boat is moving 16.86' sec, so a wave that moves the wand is already past the foil by the time it moves(time for wand to move flap(.3 sec)

-at 15 knots 25.3' sec( time for wand to move flap.2 second)

-at 20 knots 33.73' sec (time for wand to move flap .15 sec)

 
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17mika

Anarchist
949
226
Milan, Italy
"time to react to the waves"? Seems like there must be advantages to the bowsprit wand but I can't see this as one of them? The Rave, Whisper, Osprey, Skat and maybe Laser and F101 wands work perfectly at their midship position.

If the tip of the wand touches the water 5' in front of the main foil

-at 10 knots the boat is moving 16.86' sec, so a wave that moves the wand is already past the foil by the time it moves(time for wand to move flap(.3 sec)

-at 15 knots 25.3' sec( time for wand to move flap.2 second)

-at 20 knots 33.73' sec (time for wand to move flap .15 sec)
It really makes a big difference downwind in steep waves, believe me. That 0.1s you gain when you are on top of the wave at 20+ knots and the wand is already flicking forward pulling you down to the next through helps a lot to keep the boat in phase with the big waves.

Probably slower foilers with longer hulls as the f101 will have less issues and maybe also survive better the nosedives, but I can ensure you from personal experience that the wand forward helps not only the pitch stability but also the survaivability in the big stuff.

There is some cool video of day2 and 3 of the 2016 moth worlds about that

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,602
229
Sydney
Moth rules allow almost any control system. There have been foils located all over the place, and wands have been tried in lots of places too. Wand on the CB was tested in 2004 by John Ilett in smooth Perth waters but rapidly discarded it in Melbourne at the Black Rock 2005 WC. A few others have tried it but no one races with it now. Likewise everyone who tries a bowsprit mounted wand immediately observes the better control over the bow mounted wand. Bowsprits are a nuisance but are now a must have on a new month.

You can believe the hype from people promoting their own product or the junk recycled from internet junkies, but if you really need to understand foil control, listen to the hundreds of people who race moths.

Videos of moths crashing at 25kts in big waves are good entertainment, the intense racing without crashes in the same or better conditions is much more exciting but gets less YouTube coverage. In those rough conditions there are very few boats under 6m capable of going 25kts, even ones with big motors. Moth racing just demands speed, moth sailors are the best in the world at getting it. Believe what they are telling you.

 

Team_GBR

Super Anarchist
1,025
29
The Medal Race
The race track is the ultimate proving ground. Moth sailors are prepared to try almost anything to find an advantage. Some have spent large sums of money in doing so. Knowing that, and knowing the midship wand has been tried on at least 3 occasions that I know of, why would anybody discard a system that works better than others? If a midships wand gave any advantage, people would use it. As the Moth sailors point out above, everybody in the class seems to agree that the more the wand is ahead of the main foil, the better the control.

Out of curiosity, Doug, how much experience do you have of controlling a foiler with a wand, going downhill in decent waves and wind? Have you personally compared a boat with the wand forward with the same boat with the wand midships? Photos, or it never happened!

One thing in defence of the team behind the 101, they really do know how to build and sell production boats. IMO, this is one of the most professional packages I have seen. I wouldn't bet against them. (You Moth sailors need to get a bit less sensitive ;) )

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,159
1,036
South East England
why would anybody discard a system that works better than others? If a midships wand gave any advantage, people would use it.
Well, to be fair, designing a one design is a very different task to designing a development boat. In a front of fleet Moth the challenge is to design the fastest possible boat round a championship series that a leading edge sailor can handle. In a one design intended for a mass market then pure speed may be a fair way down the list compared to things like handling, cost, and dozens of other factors - effectively ultimately what will sell most boats. So what is proved best on the race track may not be the best for a one design boat. So it *may* not be unreasonable to take a compromise on performance in order to make launching and recovery easier. One might even *speculate* that the inertia of a much longer and heavier boat might mean that the advantages of the forward wand were a little less marked in this craft. I don't know whether it is a reasonable design compromise to make, and I'm not, I hope, dumb enough to make predictions about a style of craft I don't know nearly enough about.

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,159
1,036
South East England
Moth racing just demands speed,
Mm, whereas one design development demands all sorts of other stuff.

As a techie though I do prefer the way Steve and Dave have been very open about the compromises they've taken in order to hit their design aims. To me it makes a refreshing change from the eternal weasel speak spin which seems so characteristic of the beginning of the 21st Century...

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,602
229
Sydney
So many new small foilers:

UFO: Steve and Dave also did did not show their boat until they were satisfied with the design and were ready to sell boats. They set different objectives and seem to have well met them. No outlandish claims, and some US specific targets. They will sell a lot of boats at their price target. Note they did not abandon the moth/wand control system, just simplified it.

IFly. Lots of publicity a while back but gone quiet. Too big to race as a moth, a bigger WASZP, so probably cost more to build and sell. Most likely its missed its opportunity now the WASZp is selling well.

WASZP. Took many years to get going but now has sold 200 boats, and promised 250 deliveries by the end of the year. Way ahead of all the other one designs in marketing, production and also has the ability to race at the back end of moth fleets until OD fleets develop.

The big Swiss one who's name i forgot. Very expensive so unlikely to get any fleets, more likely just a "look at me" boat for fast car owners.

F101. Prototype looks well built, some nice ideas. But also looks to have too many components to build economically. Probably should be seen as low price option in the foiling catamaran market, rather than a high price dinghy with training wheels. Aft wand will cause problems in waves.

None of these will foil as well as a moth in 8kts of wind or in 30kts of wind. None will cope with waves as well as a properly set up moth, because none have the range of adjustments needed. All are heavier, so at least momentum means that they stop slower than a moth and so the relative impact speed between body and boat is less. But they will be going slower anyway. The bigger expensive ones will sail better than moths as low riders, but lots of cheap dinghies do as well. Most foil sailors prefer to wait for foiling winds which and it will be a longer wait for the heavier boats.

And all will look pretty obsolete in several years time as the foiling moth design development continues. Then we will have yet another batch of "clever" designers producing another batch of new one designs incorporating what ever design development is deemed the new big trend. Continuous creation of new one designs is ruining our sport, too many classes just thins out the fleets and ruins competition. Too many class winners who are not really champions but it makes them feel good. And too many companies with grand plans who never really sell enough boats to come out on top financially.

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
Real foiling- with production boats available- has been going on since around 2001 thanks to the Moth*. The hunt for the Peoples Foiler has been on for a similar amount of time with much less success. However, some of the new boats are contenders with the emphasis on low price on one, low wind speed foiling on a second, comfort and ease of flying on a third. Until all these elements are combined in a single boat ,I think the Peoples Foiler will still be elusive. Right now the closest is the UFO, next the S9 foiling cat and the Waszp-the F101 is probably a distant fourth. A potential contender after more development is the Flo 1. From what I've heard from people who have flown her and other boats, the Quant 23 is the easiest new foiler around to learn to fly-but 10 times the cost of a UFO.

What is needed is continued robust, imaginative development-not less.

I think the F101 is a very good looking boat-it just misses by not taking advantage of the trimaran platform and possibly by staying with the bi-foiler config instead of using a much easier to sail three foil configuration which could be powered up a bit more.

I think all these new boats will spark the design of a true Peoples Foiler-or two or three-over time. When designers realize that a comfortable foiler that flies in 5 knots and thruout the windrange, is relatively inexpensive, easy to handle on and off the water, easy to right, with retractable foils will sell we'll see some very exciting development. The closest so far, in my opinion, is the UFO.

* and to a smaller extent the Rave and Hobie trifoiler which were pioneers in production foilers

 
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A Class Sailor

Anarchist
970
127
On the water
Phil S

Interesting analysis, but IMO, it's too much from the perspective of an Australian Moth sailor. I believe there is a very different perspective when you look at it from a British point of view.

UFO - Ugly, cheap and effective, but not a boat that will sell well in the UK because it won't have the manufacturers support that new classes need to do well here. We are used to the likes of RS injecting a load of money and organisation skills to get one design racing going in season 1. People are used to ordering a new design in January and having 30 boats at the nationals in August. I also believe that the UK buyer likes boats built and finished to a certain standard, one that the Clarks have specifically avoided. I am not saying the UFO is a bad boat, or badly built, just that the british market will pay up for perceived quality. For instance, I believe they would pay the extra for the wand "prodder" to be well made in carbon.

IFly - don't know enough about it, so it's off the radar!

Waszp - Perceived to have much of the difficulty of the Moth but slower and more quirky. Saw my first one this weekend and there were some really nice details, but overall I was disappointed. I thought the wing cover looked poor (maybe it was only the way it was fitted) and the control lines coming from the boom looked unresolved, even if they do work well. I am not a fan of the aluminium foils because to me, they just look wrong with their plastic tips. A cheap mans Moth, that looks like it close up in some areas.

F101 -Obvious high build quality from a trusted source with a good track record of selling new boats and building classes. It looks the best built, most resolved boat of the lot. Of all of the new boats, this is the one I would be proud to stand next to in the boat park. It simply looks "Pukka". It doesn't look like a cheap Moth. It looks like a well sorted foiler for those who want something less difficult than the Moth clones. I think people will intutively look at it and believe they can sail it (one of the best features of the UFO). Without making any inquiries to confirm, I would bet that the boat will launch with an already set up class association, a set of one design rules and a calendar of events for next year, including a nationals where I would bet on over 30 boats, including some of the well known names in the UK sailing world. That is how the same team have done things before, so I would expect that again. I believe that history shows that sailors in the UK will pay up for boats with that sort of package and that the alleged "problems" that Mothies put out there (midships wand) will be dismissed as a mix of sour grapes and "don't care because all boats are the same" attitude.

Time will tell, but to bet against the F101 doing well in the UK would be rather foolish. It might not translate into success in other countries, but i doubt that is the immediate aim anyway. Knowing how to build a quality product, market and support a class is as important or more important than the design itself.

 
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