FAIR Act to Reform Asset Seizure Laws

[Pertinacious Tom]

Biden hasn't "seen the light" on the drug war looting programs he helped create. If there's any evidence that he has, I'd like to see it.

The very first evidence that at least someone in his administration has seen the light on this issue emerged but I put it in the relevant thread.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

When do you learn you're in violation?

You're in violation when it's over 8 inches. No one has to deliver a notice for you to be violating a code, and ignorance of the law is no excuse or defense, as you know. Assuming you have a ruler, of course.

It sounds to me like you don't have an issue with foreclosures or with fines, but you really just think $500/day is too much. That's something you need to take up with the Florida legislature and Captain Ron. The US Constitution provides no assistance. I imagine if the Florida constitution had something in it that would help, those Kochy lawyers wouldn't have gone federal.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Federal Agents Had No Authority To Seize Contents of Safe Deposit Boxes, Newly Unsealed Warrant Confirms



Looters gonna loot.

The real fourth amendment problem here was that the feds should never have opened the boxes at all. Fourth amendment, fuck you.

At least, that's what nutjobs are arguing next.



...

What Is the FBI Trying To Hide About Its Raid on Innocent Americans' Safe Deposit Boxes?

...
For example, the information provided by Jessie Murray, head of the forfeiture unit at the FBI's Los Angeles field office, could give the public vital insights into how the FBI views its powers to seize and forfeit private property—but there's no way for the average person to get that information for now:

Screenshot of plaintiffs opening brief (PAUL SNITKO, JENNIFER SNITKO, JOSEPH RUIZ, TYLER GOTHIER, JENI VERDONPEARSONS, MICHAEL STORC, and TRAVIS MAY, V. UNITED STATES, et al.)


In a brief filed Monday, prosecutors made no substantial claims about why the information in the four depositions should be kept secret. Instead, they argued that "customary practice" means the only pages of depositions filed as part of the legal record would be those specifically cited in the plaintiff's opening briefs.

In other words, if attorneys for the plaintiffs agree to limit the pages of transcripts filed, they would be able to un-redact the citations in their briefs (including the screenshots posted above). In return, the rest of the depositions would remain confidential.

But why keep any parts secret? The public has a right to know how the plan to raid U.S. Private Vaults unfolded, particularly in light of Klausner ruling last year in a related case that the FBI had provided "no factual basis" for the seizures. Separately, in a ruling that denied the government's attempt to get a lawsuit over the seized items dismissed, Klausner found that the government's case against U.S. Private Vault's customers was not based on "anything more than pure conjecture."
...

I've got a pretty good idea of how looters view their power to loot but I would like to see it unredacted anyway.

 

[Olsonist]

Olsonist, on the topic of drug war looting, why don't you explain why doubling the looting and then cutting it back in half is "curtailing" it?

Then we can get to why any responsible person would want to agree with TeamL that it needs to be curtailed.

So I'm a little light on the history here (I don't subscribe to Reason) but AG Holder, you know, the gun walking black guy, signed an order prohibiting the DOJ from sharing in the proceeds of asset seizures. You can read about that here:

Attorney General Prohibits Federal Agency Adoptions of Assets Seized by State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies Except Where Needed to Protect Public Safety

www.justice.gov

Your boy Shitstain's boy boy Jeff Sessions reversed that. You can read about that here:

Jeff Sessions: Feds Have the Right to Seize Your Cash, Property - The American Conservative

Expands the controversial federal civil asset forfeiture program.

www.theamericanconservative.com

I don't know and can't find Merrick Garland's policy. He probably has more on his plate than this Fakebertian's corner case deserves.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

I provide quotes with a link back for context, which seems a lot more honest than people around here who just characterize what was said with no link.

Your question seems dishonest to me because it implies knowingly violating the law.



I believe Mr. Ficken that he found out about the fines after they were in the tens of thousands. There's no way to find out about 500 tickets after you get them all. Think up an example that's more relevant and honest.

Mr. Ficken was served with citations pursuant to the city code both physically and by mail. You do understand that if you are served, you are deemed to have been notified. Can't put hands over your eyes and pretend you don't see it.

You're not going to argue that one can't be a murderer if they didn't know there was a law against it, are you?

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

So I'm a little light on the history here (I don't subscribe to Reason) but AG Holder, you know, the gun walking black guy, signed an order prohibiting the DOJ from sharing in the proceeds of asset seizures. You can read about that here:

Attorney General Prohibits Federal Agency Adoptions of Assets Seized by State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies Except Where Needed to Protect Public Safety

www.justice.gov

Your boy Shitstain's boy boy Jeff Sessions reversed that. You can read about that here:

Jeff Sessions: Feds Have the Right to Seize Your Cash, Property - The American Conservative

Expands the controversial federal civil asset forfeiture program.

www.theamericanconservative.com

I don't know and can't find Merrick Garland's policy. He probably has more on his plate than this Fakebertian's corner case deserves.

I know that Sessions has long been Biden's boy on drug war looting and it's one of many reasons drug war opponents like myself were horrified by his appointment, as I've said.

I do know Merrick Garland's policy: don't reverse what Sessions did because Sessions and Biden and drug war looters. He got around to reversing a whole lot of things. Somehow overlooked this one and reversing what your boy Trump did on bump stocka. I'm still an Obama fan on that one, but that's another thread where you can't address the topic.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Mr. Ficken was served with citations pursuant to the city code both physically and by mail. You do understand that if you are served, you are deemed to have been notified. Can't put hands over your eyes and pretend you don't see it.

You're not going to argue that one can't be a murderer if they didn't know there was a law against it, are you?

Yeah, yeah, there were lots of reasons that the looters could keep Mr. Timbs' car for a while too.

Then they lost. I still hope it happens again.

 

[Olsonist]

I know that Sessions has long been Biden's boy on drug war looting and it's one of many reasons drug war opponents like myself were horrified by his appointment, as I've said.

I do know Merrick Garland's policy: don't reverse what Sessions did because Sessions and Biden and drug war looters. He got around to reversing a whole lot of things. Somehow overlooked this one and reversing what your boy Trump did on bump stocka. I'm still an Obama fan on that one, but that's another thread where you can't address the topic.

Yes, Tom. You know things.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I imagine if the Florida constitution had something in it that would help, those Kochy lawyers wouldn't have gone federal.

I imagine that if you had read the decision that you helpfully linked, you would have noticed this part.

Ficken filed a four-count complaint in a Florida state court on the same day. The City later removed the action to federal district court.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Thank you for pointing out my error. Why do you think the city removed it?

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Thank you for pointing out my error. Why do you think the city removed it?

You're welcome. Just a wild guess: better for looters, worse for property owners.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Tom will be along shortly to note that his boy Rand bravely voted Present.

You want to talk about Rand Paul but don't want to talk about the only libertarian thing about him, which is his stance on the Reagan/Biden drug war looting program.

Go ahead. Tell us why Joe is right and libertarians are wrong about drug war looting. Or just change the subject again because you know Joe and the drug war looters are indefensible.

 

[Olsonist]

Actually, your boy Rand is in favor of letting the states decide whether to imprison drug users.
Very Fakebertarian.

You want to talk about Rand Paul but don't want to talk about the only libertarian thing about him, which is his stance on the Reagan/Biden drug war looting program.

Go ahead. Tell us why Joe is right and libertarians are wrong about drug war looting. Or just change the subject again because you know Joe and the drug war looters are indefensible.

Yeah, the 'only' thing. Can you remind us why your boi trolled the DemocRATs about not passing marijuana legislation? Can you remind us why your boi Rand didn't sign on to the Marijuana Freedom and Opportunity Act? Your boi is about as anti-drug war as you were anti-war war.

Rand Paul Mocks Democrats For Failing To Pass Marijuana Banking In Annual Festivus Grievances List

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) kept up his “Festivus” tradition on Thursday, marking the Seinfeld-popularized holiday with an airing of grievances that includes slamming Democrats for failing to advance marijuana banking reform despite having a congressional majority and control of the presidency. This...

www.marijuanamoment.net

Details for S. 3174 (115th): Marijuana Freedom and Opportunity Act - GovTrack.us

Details for S. 3174 (115th): Marijuana Freedom and Opportunity Act

www.govtrack.us

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Actually, your boy Rand is in favor of letting the states decide whether to imprison drug users.

Great, take it to the stupid drug war thread, where I've already noted he's hardly a libertarian.

But your beef is with his libertarianism. So get back on topic. Tell us why Joe is right and libertarians are wrong about drug war looting. Or just change the subject again for the same reason you just changed it again.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Prosecutors Who Want Credit for Investigating Police Corruption Are Happy To Steal Money From Innocent People

...
Harris County District Attorney Kim Ogg called Jeffery's case "a due process disaster." His arrest and conviction showed how lax supervisors, incurious prosecutors, deferential judges, credulous jurors, and inattentive defense attorneys let bad cops send innocent people to prison. But at least Jeffery was supposed to get due process. Civil asset forfeiture, the system that authorized Goines to steal Thomas' money, is a due process disaster by design, which somehow does not deter Ogg from taking advantage of it to pad her budget.
...
Last year, the Institute for Justice filed a state lawsuit challenging forfeiture practices in Harris County. The lead defendant is the Harris County District Attorney's Office—the same agency that is trying to assess and ameliorate the damage done by Goines' outrageous abuses.

The lead plaintiffs in the proposed class action are a Mississippi couple, Ameal Woods and Jordan Davis, who were robbed of $42,300 after they were pulled over by sheriff's deputies on Interstate 10 in May 2019. Woods and Davis were on their way to Houston, where Woods planned to spend the money on a tractor and a trailer for his trucking business. The deputies ostensibly stopped them because they were following another vehicle too closely, although Woods, who was driving, was not cited for that alleged offense. Instead, the cops made off with the couple's life savings.

The district attorney's office filed a forfeiture petition the following month. But Woods and Davis were not notified of the pending action until last August, 27 months after the seizure.

According to the Institute for Justice lawsuit, all of the money Woods and Davis were carrying was obtained legally. The largest share, $22,800, came from Woods' savings. He borrowed $6,500 from his wife and $13,000 from his niece, planning to pay them back after his investment in a tractor-trailer allowed him to expand his business.

The forfeiture petition claimed a drug-detecting dog alerted to the money. But no such dog was present during the stop, which means this alleged canine inspection must have occurred after the deputies already had seized the cash, supposedly based on probable cause to believe it was related to illegal activity. Research has found that as much as 90 percent of U.S. currency carries traces of cocaine, which therefore hardly counts as evidence that the current owner is involved in drug dealing.

"What happened to Ameal and Jordan routinely happens to other property owners in Harris County," the lawsuit says. After reviewing 113 civil forfeiture petitions filed by county prosecutors since 2016, the Institute for Justice found that all of them were "based on a form affidavit written by an officer who was not present at the time and place of seizure." Seventy-nine of the affidavits included identical or closely similar language saying "a K-9 Unit gave a positive response for the odor of narcotics" when presented with the property. Eighty affidavits were written by the same officer who supported the petition seeking forfeiture of the money seized from Woods and Davis, and 92 "involved a dog alert that allegedly was obtained after police seized property."

The lawsuit argues that Harris County's legalized larceny violates the state constitution in several ways: It involves seizures that are not based on probable cause; it does not give property owners a prompt post-seizure hearing; it relies on "hearsay testimony" and "cut-and-paste allegations"; it gives law enforcement agencies a financial incentive to seize first and ask questions later (if ever); and it requires owners to prove their innocence.
...

I hope and believe that Ameal and Woods' "Kochy lawyers" are more careful readers than Mr. Clean was just shown to be and that they prevail in their suit. But really I hope that Americans quit with the stupid drug war and its spinoff abuses.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Tom's boi boi Rand bravely voted Present.

Olsonist's boy Joe is still wrong and Rand is still right on drug war looting.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Rand is still right on drug war looting.

Maybe, but he admits he is a prohibitionist.

Paul said he believes in freedom and wants a “virtuous society” where people practice “self-restraint.” Yet he believes in laws and limits as well. Instead of advocating for legalized drugs, for example, he pushes for reduced penalties for many drug offenses.

“I’m not advocating everyone go out and run around with no clothes on and smoke pot,” he said. “I’m not a libertarian. I’m a libertarian Republican. I’m a constitutional conservative.”

The rollout of the new Paul brand continued Friday night in Iowa, home to the first-in-the-nation presidential caucuses, where he headlined a sold-out Republican Party dinner and drew repeated applause from GOP activists.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Maybe, but he admits he is a prohibitionist.

Maybe? I thought you opposed the Reagan/Biden looting programs?

As for the fact that Rand Paul is no libertarian on the stupid drug war, I've covered that in the relevant thread. But on this drug war spinoff, he's right. No maybe about it. He's way more right than Joe Biden, who has NOT seen the light on this issue at all, your earlier assertion to the contrary in this thread notwithstanding.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Prosecutors Who Want Credit for Investigating Police Corruption Are Happy To Steal Money From Innocent People



I hope and believe that Ameal and Woods' "Kochy lawyers" are more careful readers than Mr. Clean was just shown to be and that they prevail in their suit. But really I hope that Americans quit with the stupid drug war and its spinoff abuses.

I sure would hope they are more careful at their jobs than I am at perusing forum posts. Unfortunately, as long as christians control much of the country, prohibition will endure. Religion is always at the root of all prohibition.
Can't make america great again as long as JESUS controls.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I imagine if the Florida constitution had something in it that would help, those Kochy lawyers wouldn't have gone federal.

I sure would hope they are more careful at their jobs than I am at perusing forum posts.

Did you get that misinformation from some forum post, or from a less than careful reading of the opinion you linked?

Because I didn't see any such post. I think you accused me of not reading the opinion and then demonstrated that you... didn't read the opinion.