Farr X2

Livia

Super Anarchist
4,011
1,080
Southern Ocean
Can't wait for the Asrehats to put their spin on it as well given the new keel inspection requirements.
Of course it is sounding like their bullshit test would not have spotted this failure anyway.
Quick lets have an inquiry so we can have more rules.
 

Hans Genthe

Member
109
102
Dubai
It´s a similar keel construction like the Farr280. PCT (the builder of the Farr280) has done a great job in quality control during building, I heard they rejected 50% of the welded inner structures of their supplier due to quality problems. (Please, note, that´s a rumour, I was not in the factory at this time).
I am pretty sure that the calculation of the loads and the design is Ok, I have seen a Farr280 beaching with 12 knots of speed at cowes week just beside us (I have a Farr280, too). And I have seen the keel some hours later on land, no visible damage in structure.
I expect it is a welding problem. You need a very good company to do it, maybe this is a bit difficult in Indonesia. They have to follow the steel grade definitions and process, and if someone use the wrong welding material, is is difficult to see.
 

Rawhide

Super Anarchist
1,899
99
Pittwater
It´s a similar keel construction like the Farr280. PCT (the builder of the Farr280) has done a great job in quality control during building, I heard they rejected 50% of the welded inner structures of their supplier due to quality problems. (Please, note, that´s a rumour, I was not in the factory at this time).
I am pretty sure that the calculation of the loads and the design is Ok, I have seen a Farr280 beaching with 12 knots of speed at cowes week just beside us (I have a Farr280, too). And I have seen the keel some hours later on land, no visible damage in structure.
I expect it is a welding problem. You need a very good company to do it, maybe this is a bit difficult in Indonesia. They have to follow the steel grade definitions and process, and if someone use the wrong welding material, is is difficult to see.
Interesting observations. But the X2 keel is cast steel (no welding) so not of much relevance
 

minime88

New member
30
7
The article for those that didn’t see it. https://www.sail-world.com/news/251063/Just-a-second

Excuse my language but fuck that guy. His innuendo that the sailors are somehow to blame is bullshit.
In that in his mind they didn't perform 'proper' trials before heading out on a new boat in that weather?

I tend to agree with you, the article was total wank. I would be extremely surprised if there were signs that the crew may have noticed indicating damage to the keel prior to the boat turning turtle. It was a qualifier/shakedown, the engineering was done, failure would have been unexpected. Glad they are safe.
 

Snowden

Super Anarchist
1,099
580
UK
In that in his mind they didn't perform 'proper' trials before heading out on a new boat in that weather?

Indeed. He had it right when he said "30-knots with 5m seas is inside the brief". Article should just have been a tweet of that quotation.

Now of course if it comes out that they grounded it or didn't bother to change plans when seawater started pissing in through the keel bolts I'll retract my statement!
 

JonRowe

Super Anarchist
1,841
984
Offshore.
Already a lot of club racing has a 25 knot limit applied, yet we gladly send off fleets to the big blue when many have not had the kinds of training that only exposure to vicious elements can deliver.
This irked me, what does he think they were doing? Going on a pleasure cruise? If your argument is people need more training in heavy air then you need to not criticise people for going out training or qualifying in heavy airs...
 

MRS OCTOPUS

Anarchist
694
235
AUSTRALIA
JFC I thought bulb keel engineering was well sorted on boats this size, then along comes this crowd with a cast iron fin with a ton of lead stuck on the end.
Do we know yet if the keel failed or the hull socket?


WTF.

From https://www.farrx2.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Farr-X2-Specification.pdf

5.Keel and Bulb
5.1 General
Male/Female cassette style keel connection.
Cast iron fin with moulded composite fairings.
Cast Lead bulb with composite fairings.
Designed and built above current ISO Standard requirements as stated in section 1.3.
6.Steering system
 
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The Dark Knight

Super Anarchist
6,862
1,536
Brisvegas
This irked me, what does he think they were doing? Going on a pleasure cruise? If your argument is people need more training in heavy air then you need to not criticise people for going out training or qualifying in heavy airs...
I used to get a bit vocal on the 25knt limit at my old club. Especially when a northerly would mean there was a flat sea. He should be criticising the 25 limit, not the going to sea.

How about this BS

Equally, many would say that taking a new boat out into that, when all it had done previously was photographic type trips on Pittwater and Sydney Harbour

How does he know that this is the only sailing in the boat?
 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,641
5,607
Canada
"Given the forecast, and the resultant weather that did and is still prevailing, one would imagine all insurers would look poorly upon you. Now right there is exactly the point. That is for the insurers and the legal eagles to wander through. Not us."

That guy is a wanker. Since when has an insurance company declined a claim due to it being too rough and the boat losing a keel?

Better article:

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/crew-rescued-from-upturned-hull-of-new-farr-x2-after-keel-loss-139333

I am very glad the crew is safe and cheers to the rescuers in what was obviously some rough weather. Good idea to have the EPIRB in an accessible place but most of us don't plan on a capsize.

Anyway to some mindless speculation as is customary around here:

- Cast iron fins are pretty robust (if cast properly). You don't worry about bolts pulling out of them.
- a cassette is also a pretty straightforward and sturdy connection. Usually.

1656956947244.png


- FYD have been doing this for some time so I would think somebody would raise a red flag if the drawings looked wrong. Experienced engineers/designers are pretty good at looking at something and saying "that looks way too weak. check the calcs because somebody missed something". Doesn't mean it wasn't a design error, just it's not something I'd look at first.
- no rudders visible in this photo. They were twin kick up type so maybe they are kicked up?? Odd anyway.

That's all I got.
1656956544876.png


More investigation. Construction photos. https://www.instagram.com/farrx2_/?hl=en

What can I tell from this photo. Not much. These are plugs for the keel fin and lead bulb casting made on a CNC machine. Odd the amount of hand fairing afterward (if that is what I am seeing).

Not the tidiest of shops but not out of line with lots of composite builders. The better builders have clean facilities and tidier arrangements. But you'd be surprised at how ugly/messy big production glass builders look like as well.

1656957390938.png

From their Facebook page - here is how the keel is installed.
1656958246591.png

Keel socket laminated as part of the hull.
1656958480426.png

Somewhat distorted by wide angle lens.

Toward the front is the transverse keel support structure. Shop vac gives perspective on how big it is.

A bit aft is the bed for the saildrive. Then some beefy long'l hull stringers.
1656958736078.png
 

Hans Genthe

Member
109
102
Dubai
I seen a lot of Farr keel designs but never a cast iron fin designed like this ... appr. 30-40% less fatigue compared to a forged steel construction. The sharp edges when the fin passes in the keel head lead to force peaks in the edges, which a cristalline structure of cast iron don´t like ... danger of crack formation.
 

Snowden

Super Anarchist
1,099
580
UK
Dumb question but where do the keel bolts go in this construction? Horizontally through the socket, vertically through the bottom of the hull or both?
 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
12,668
3,732
The Netherlands
Hard to tell if construction is right only with the photos, even after laminated more then 30 of those on a few designs. But in all of them the socket piece was way beefier. But that was 10 years ago.

I have seen bolts going into the top, which asks for a special construction not visible here. So most likely sideways.
 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,641
5,607
Canada
Typically bolts are sideways in this construction.

The socket you see in the photo is probably just part of the keel box structure. Hard to look at the picture and determine how thick the socket is. Or if additional layers were to be added afterward.

Here's a thought - all metals that I can think of are made of crystals! I love people seeing a broken bit of metal and say "oh it broke because it crystallized".

I think the fin has a glass fairing over it. (see the top of the tooling for the fin - you can just make out the tapered top bit). So the cast iron part probably does not have a sharp edge like you think. This makes it easy to create a smooth keel fin instead of a lot of work on a cast iron casting which will be very rough in comparison.

1656963590420.png
 

MRS OCTOPUS

Anarchist
694
235
AUSTRALIA
Does anyone know what foil section is generally used these days?
Guessing around 400 ++ mm cord length, so allowing for the fairings , the casting is not that thick.
Like Hans I have been involved in the manufacture of quite a few similar keels, none cast iron.
We still don’t know if the fin snapped or it just fell out however but SA tradition does not stop us reaching conclusions:D
Do they kit this thing out with cast stainless shackles?
 
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