Farrier bought by Daedalus

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
1, 2, and 3 just says he engineered them well enough for his engineering, not as well as they could be, ( but thats my opinion) thats the old make it thicker and it wont crack?

for the Corsair 24...

Do your bulkheads line up with the ama beams?

Does the traveler run between the aft beams?

Beam hold down bolts sitting on multipiece stainless brackets in shear ( they are vertical) so close to the  deck hull join you have a fight between lamination and backing plate and screw size?

The ama molding doesnt hold the bushes in to the top strut outside pin so when they get pushed out the ama can and does go up and down the movement creates a huge force in shear on those 2 screws and the deck ( mainly the front) with the 1/2" bolt in it. If you dont catch it early it either shears the screws or tears the deck or both. Most catch to due to the leak it creates inside.

Deck cracks under traveler where it turns down 90 degree in the cockpit as its taking the sheet load with zero extra reinforcement on the corner as bulkhead is forward at the aft beam.

More laminate covers all of the above, better detailed design would also cure it.

Ask a boat builder that fixes them, every time they look and say how was that ever going to work?

Maybe Corsairs various owners changed everything after he left, then I am mistaken?

( I guess its a what to check when buying a 24, still great boats to sail thanks to the late Mr Farrier)

 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,675
254
Annapolis, MD
Sailabout you may consider visiting the google and do some research on the Farrier/Corsair history. I'm no Corsair expert but Ian left there specifically because of the type of problems you are dealing with. Short story there is Corsair management wouldn't build to Ians detailed engineering/design plans because it was too costly/time consuming so they did it their way, tried to cut corners etc. which is why most have some sort of problem either out of the box or later down the road. This isn't to bash on Corsair as they did/do what they can to build a good enough product at a price point the market can accept-basically cheap enough and fast enough. You could build it right, still do so quickly but it would likely cost a good deal more. Or you can build it right at a reasonable price point but not very quickly which is my understanding of the F-22 production situation. This approach also mirrors the Exocet Moth build approach (limited to 20 a year as well to avoid a cut in quality or hike in price).

 
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plywoodboy

Super Anarchist
1,027
136
Brisbane
1, 2, and 3 just says he engineered them well enough for his engineering, not as well as they could be, ( but thats my opinion) thats the old make it thicker and it wont crack?

for the Corsair 24...

Do your bulkheads line up with the ama beams?

Does the traveler run between the aft beams?

Beam hold down bolts sitting on multipiece stainless brackets in shear ( they are vertical) so close to the  deck hull join you have a fight between lamination and backing plate and screw size?

The ama molding doesnt hold the bushes in to the top strut outside pin so when they get pushed out the ama can and does go up and down the movement creates a huge force in shear on those 2 screws and the deck ( mainly the front) with the 1/2" bolt in it. If you dont catch it early it either shears the screws or tears the deck or both. Most catch to due to the leak it creates inside.

Deck cracks under traveler where it turns down 90 degree in the cockpit as its taking the sheet load with zero extra reinforcement on the corner as bulkhead is forward at the aft beam.

More laminate covers all of the above, better detailed design would also cure it.

Ask a boat builder that fixes them, every time they look and say how was that ever going to work?

Maybe Corsairs various owners changed everything after he left, then I am mistaken?

( I guess its a what to check when buying a 24, still great boats to sail thanks to the late Mr Farrier)
Sailabout you seem to have a fair degree of bitter and twisted and are doing the equivalent of picking on Mercedes engineers based on your 20 your old POS from a used car lot.

Samc has done a good answer for but to waste a minute of my time as your Google:

I owned an old and tired F24 Mk II for years and it was nothing like what you have said. Mine crossed OZ and was thrashed and then crossed to NZ and is getting thrashed and still is a great example of Farrier/Ostac (predecessor of Corsair here). All moving parts were like swiss watch components, traveller nothing like your report here. One big thing for all owners of all Farrier/Corsairs is to be careful with shim thicknesses where beams contact hulls. Refer to many sources for the document on that. Google Intrigue F24 or PM me for help if you can't manage the basics. Pic below to get you started.

Perhaps yours is Mk I which was a big swerve of Corsair away from Ian's design. No boat builders here have had to do any of the fixes you have described, but the sensible place to start is the Groups.IO forum FCT, replacing the old yahoo forums, and see if some guys with similar experiences can help you out.

F-24Helena2004.jpg

 

WetnWild

Super Anarchist
1,320
56
Brisvegas
Sailabout I don’t see any of those problems with this boat and it is raced regularly (at least weekly) and hard. It was plan built with detailed support by IF and to me as the owner. It’s just a delight to own and sail. And it’s light. 815kg ready to race with five sails, motor, and everything else needed.

8CE8FF8A-7746-4D5A-BB86-38BC117176FB.jpeg

 
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Sailabout

Super Anarchist
My observations were Corsairs, the debate is are they Farrier engineered or Corsair engineered?

Not bitter and twisted just an basic observation., Not to confuse those 3 separate  issues that effect all boats, design, engineering and build

Yes shimming beams is important but if the bush issue has happened it stresses the inboard end and that exposes the next weak link.

 
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MultiThom

Super Anarchist
1,745
392
Benicia, CA
Sailabout does have a point that there are 3 issues...design, engineering and build.  IF was "deliberate" (nice way of saying slow and methodical) related to all 3.  His method for Quality Control  of the build was a good one for its time.   More modern and faster Quality Assurance techniques exist for use in today's manufacturing but aren't used extensively in boat building.  After all, boats are not truly "mass produced" so we use the techniques that the shoemaker in 1477 used (make sure it fits after I've made it).   Had the Viet factory (Triac Composites)  used even basic QC I wouldn't have had to fix their "bash to fit" mistakes.  Face it, production schedules cause idiot workers (they aren't really idiots, just not fully knowledgeable about what makes a boat do what it does in detail) to do "less than perfect" work and in asian/viet yards (factories) we get less supervision of the factory floor and the supervisors are also more interested in schedule than build quality.  After all, the factory gets paid by the piece (boat) when it is finished and most mistakes won't be "found out" prior to payment.
 

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
whereisloulounow said:
I think that's a little harsh to speak of the dead like that. Ian Farrier actually started Farrier Marine, and built close to 20 F-22s before passing. In it's new guise as Farrier International we have already sped up production with a little streamlining here and there so the orders that are on the books can be fulfilled a lot earlier.
Thats good news, so no more one laminate a week, which was perfect for the home builder but not so good for production

I hope its a great success so Ian's name and designs live on forever, he certainly deserves that.

 

sail(plane)

Anarchist
688
106
whereisloulounow said:
Which expired prior to Ian's passing.
You seem to know what´s happening. Could you tell us at least your side of the story how is the present state of Farrier boats manufacturing?

Is Multihull Direct totallly out of the business?

maybe they still going to build F-33 and F-45 while F-22 are built in NZ and US?

(MD site says they are exclusively licenced for F-33 and F-45, but they don´t even publish Ian´s death so their website is pretty old) 

or maybe they´ll only finish the boats they started?

or are you in a legal dispute over those things and can´t say anything?

 
Insurance... where do you get insurance from!!??? Weve got a farrier 82r in Wellington New Zealand Zealand can't get full insurance at all even thou we keep it in a marina. Any ideas?

 

sail(plane)

Anarchist
688
106
whereisloulounow said:
There's a lot of questions there my friend! Farrier International is an entirely new company. We have no legal dispute with anyone so it would be imprudent to comment on that.

Multihulls Direct do indeed seem to have a lot going on, and I've watched their work from afar and from before my engagement here with interest. As to what they intend to do with that business and their production, you would be best served to ask them.

Thanks to everyone here for allowing me to answer some questions, and clarify a couple of points, I hope! Have a great weekend, fair winds, happy sailing, over and out... :)
at the rate you are answering questions, people are going to get tired of asking really soon

 

craigiri

Super Anarchist
8,434
143
Sarasota - W. MA.
I have to question the idea that some differences in affordability would create sales out of thin air...I had my 2008 Sprint listed here in the Classifieds for 3 months and don't think I got a single inquiry on it. It's 35K and, as some said above, "bulletproof" in the way it is built. For most who want to just mess around on the water, they could buy something from 25-40K which would suit them perfectly - yet the used boats, even in good condition, aren't selling.

Remember, Farrier built up a hype for many many years....so it's not surprising that there is an initial load of these boats which are selling or would sell. A bigger question becomes what is the sustained "run rate" once those initial orders have been filled. We may all be over-estimating the demand for Farrier Designed 22 and 24' (and many other) tris and cats. I have seen the same thing happen in many businesses I have been involved in - WE know the widget or thingy is great and therefore we think a large number can be sold. 

The Market can be a tough boss. But, in summary, if solid used boats aren't flying out the door at 1/2 or 1/3rd the price of a new one, things don't look real bright to me. The only thing not really figured in this particular opinion is OD - that is, I don't know what the demand might be for fleets in certain areas. But, still, it's hard to see 100's of boats at @90K each selling for such purposes.

The tough thing about sailing is that those with the desire...and money..often don't have the time. Those with the time don't have the money or don't live in the right places. This season, while sailing in Portsmouth (RI), I'd say  that most of my sailing was done with zero sailboats in sight in the 10 sq mile or so areas I typically inhabit. None. 

Obviously I am talking USA. More civilized countries like France may have more leisure - and therefore more market. 

Hey, I hope everyone makes big money and good boats. I have certainly never sailed anything which was as much fun for the $$ spent....as well as practical and safe. 

 

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