Fastnet 2021

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,517
1,282
Melbourne
Yes, very interesting.

I think there are two factors playing a role:

1. JPKs perform well under offshore IRC and have been optimized for what is agreed to be a factor here (no bulb, short DWL, rather low SA/D).

2. I suspect a regional factor (Brittany-based) as well as a 'patriot-factor' (many French sailors opting for these boats) which in the end leads to a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' where everyone accepts that JPKs are THE design to have for a succesful IRC overall campaign. 

Some things I noted designwise:

The first 'modern' X-Yacht is waaaay down on time, an XP 44, even behind Refanut. I think that is brand-damaging in the long-term and X should prepare a campaign for the next edition to bolster their 'sporty' image, otherwise they end up competing entirely in the luxury market. I'm very impressed with how good the old X332 performed, though.

I also think that it wouldn't have been a good journey for a Dehler 30 OD. I doubt that they would have had fun in the first 48 hours. J/99s did quite well, though.

Not as good as the 3200, however, which on average are at least on par with the newer 3300, maybe even outperforming them on time.
The interesting thing with this race is there were a lot of JPK1180's competing however they range from the winner Sunrise to boats that haven't even finished yet. They are all over the place. I think it's fair to say Sunrise was very well sailed, perhaps a little lucky and in a boat that rates very well. ...

 

JonRowe

Super Anarchist
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Offshore.
@Frogman, the build quality of the JPK is awsome. It's Australian of course! :D
Has Innovation Composite actually built one yet? I heard about the license but wasn't aware any of the boats had been finished and then shipped over to the world at great expensive compared to sailing one across the channel from the original yards  :p

The interesting thing with this race is there were a lot of JPK1180's competing however they range from the winner Sunrise to boats that haven't even finished yet. They are all over the place. I think it's fair to say Sunrise was very well sailed, perhaps a little lucky and in a boat that rates very well. ...
Disclaimer, this is total hear-say, but I hear the trick is to buy either a used JPK thats been sorted, or set aside budget and time to sort a new one to the sort of racing you wish to do. No different to any other top end of boat of course, but not something you expect from a more production style run.

 

Jethrow

Super Anarchist
Has Innovation Composite actually built one yet? I heard about the license but wasn't aware any of the boats had been finished and then shipped over to the world at great expensive compared to sailing one across the channel from the original yards  :p
Actually @JonRowe I don't know. I saw the IC guys had finished a boat and had posted about the win, but I don't know if it's the same boat ;)

 

razcaillou

New member
40
29
JPKs are very well build indeed, the different with the sunfast is significant( but they are a bit more expensive).

I have sailed extensively on the 10.10 and 10.80 they are just simple but good performers in all conditions with no glaring weakness, easy to sail and  very well behaved even in strong conditions.

 

JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
427
UK
Got to love that Leon sailed out the Solent in 25-35kts of wind over tide carrying a full main when other boats were overwhelmed with 2 reefs and a J4 FEABF043-D150-4802-A019-668FCEB884C5.jpeg DD4439FE-9674-4208-A0DD-3E78C44B6E72.jpeg

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
Got to love that Leon sailed out the Solent in 25-35kts of wind over tide carrying a full main when other boats were overwhelmed with 2 reefs and a J4 View attachment 457290 View attachment 457291
Not sure if that's just a moment or if they really had their main trimmed to the extreme, so that the top creates lift to windward, uprighting the boat. If so, that's not sailing anymore, that's occultism ;)

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
Some fun with numbers:

So overall, the most succesful 'class' / design in this Fastnet were the SF 3200, with an average place of 43. They are also one of the most consitent fleets, with a standard deviation of 15, so the odds of achieving a Top 1/3rd place with a SF 3200 are very good. 

Very interesting to see the consistency of each Sun Fast group (but samples size is too small to really gauge sth. from there).

The JPK designs (all) -as mentioned- show far more deviation, the 1180 ranges from 1st place to 133rd, which is almost last of the finishers. Average place 'only' 48th.

X-Yachts (only very few) show an average place of 76,6, which is not really ok for performance boats, showing in my view a) their age and b) that they are not really good IRC boats. But it's a small sample.

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

Fun Fact: A First Class 10 placed 18th in 4days 21hrs, beating the first 40.7 by an hour ON SAILED TIME! Even a Dehler 33 cruising beat the first 40.7 by 12 minutes on sailed time.

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

fastnet.jpg

So, in hindsight:

If I had to chose a design to have a good shot at a Rolex (on a budget), I think I'd pick the Dehler 33 cruising and try to survive it in the 2H division, because:

Winning time in 2H for Leon corrected: 4:18:46

Dehler 33 in IRC 4 corrected: 4:18:06 - DING

Here is a nice video from Sun Hill 3, the Dehler 33 in question:




 
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JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
427
UK
12 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Some fun with numbers:

So overall, the most succesful 'class' / design in this Fastnet were the SF 3200, with an average place of 43. They are also one of the most consitent fleets, with a standard deviation of 15, so the odds of achieving a Top 1/3rd place with a SF 3200 are very good. 

Very interesting to see the consistency of each Sun Fast group (but samples size is too small to really gauge sth. from there).

The JPK designs (all) -as mentioned- show far more deviation, the 1180 ranges from 1st place to 133rd, which is almost last of the finishers. Average place 'only' 48th.

X-Yachts (only very few) show an average place of 76,6, which is not really ok for performance boats, showing in my view a) their age and b) that they are not really good IRC boats. But it's a small sample.

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

Fun Fact: A First Class 10 placed 18th in 4days 21hrs, beating the first 40.7 by an hour ON SAILED TIME! Even a Dehler 33 cruising beat the first 40.7 by 12 minutes on sailed time.

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

View attachment 457292

So, in hindsight:

If I had to chose a design to have a good shot at a Rolex (on a budget), I think I'd pick the Dehler 33 cruising and try to survive it in the 2H division, because:

Winning time in 2H for Leon corrected: 4:18:46

Dehler 33 in IRC 4 corrected: 4:18:06 - DING

Here is a nice video from Sun Hill 3, the Dehler 33 in question:


How do J boats fit into the scores?

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
How do J boats fit into the scores?
All over the place, but a bit more of them in the top 50%.

Keep in mind, that above is just a snapshot, many variables have not been taken into account. In fact, I find it astonishing that you see some clear consistency in some fleets.

 
Actually @JonRowe I don't know. I saw the IC guys had finished a boat and had posted about the win, but I don't know if it's the same boat ;)
Most likely all of the JPK's in the Fastnet are from the JPK boatyard in Larmor-Plage France unless it's a newer boat owned by someone from Australia.  If I remember correctly the JPK Pacific boats in Australia relationship just started 3 or 4 years ago?  Jean-Pierre is still running the show in France and building boats there.  'Leon', the 1030 is owned by Jean-Pierre although he didn't race this year and Sunrise is a UK boat which was built in France.

JPKs are very well build indeed, the different with the sunfast is significant( but they are a bit more expensive).

I have sailed extensively on the 10.10 and 10.80 they are just simple but good performers in all conditions with no glaring weakness, easy to sail and  very well behaved even in strong conditions.
Couldn't agree more!  They are very special boats, though admittedly I'm biased because I own one.  Build quality is 2nd to none and it just takes a short time sailing one to realize they are built and designed by someone who's spent many, many miles sailing and racing offshore.  So many little but very important details you just don't appreciate until you sail one.  Boats are supposed to be all about compromises but there are very few with a JPK.  Set it and forget it cruising or full on offshore racing in 30+knots and everything in between it can do quite well.  I'm not saying JPK's are the only boats made this well but for sure among just a small handful maybe.

Disclaimer, this is total hear-say, but I hear the trick is to buy either a used JPK thats been sorted, or set aside budget and time to sort a new one to the sort of racing you wish to do. No different to any other top end of boat of course, but not something you expect from a more production style run.
Respectfully, not sure I would agree with that, at least in my experience.  I'd say the best reason to buy a JPK used is firstly because it will be cheaper and secondly there's often a 2 year wait for a new one.  Because they are semi custom boats Jean-Pierre will build it almost any way you want for any type of sailing you do. I don't think he's going to let a fugly Frankenstein shit box leave his yard with his name on it but beyond that whatever you want he'll make happen.  

We were incredibly lucky when we bought our 1080, we had the best of both worlds.  Bought it used but it had only been sailing less than 5 times.  So basically brand new but didn't have to wait 2 years.  Except for a few tweaks here and there to get it set up the way we like it was ready to race out of the box.   The biggest issue was it didn't have a stereo when I bought it.  A very serious WTF moment when I realized that after I paid for the boat.  Seriously, what kind of psychopath sails without music playing???  My god, the horror!  :)   For sure any limitations about the boat were more on the part of the owner and crew and not the boat.

 

enigmatically2

Super Anarchist
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1,767
Earth
You have to remember that the Fastnet is a race of tidal gates and changing winds. So if your boat is just the right speed to get to the turns at the right time then you are likely to do well. But if yours is then others in the same class of boat are probably not that far away either. Whereas 10% faster or slower and you can be screwed. So I would expect some consistency of results between boats of the same class. What stands out to me from your analysis is actually how little that is the case and therefore how much is down to how well the boats are set-up and sailed. 

Which is good.

 
You have to remember that the Fastnet is a race of tidal gates and changing winds. So if your boat is just the right speed to get to the turns at the right time then you are likely to do well. But if yours is then others in the same class of boat are probably not that far away either. Whereas 10% faster or slower and you can be screwed. So I would expect some consistency of results between boats of the same class. What stands out to me from your analysis is actually how little that is the case and therefore how much is down to how well the boats are set-up and sailed. 

Which is good.
Interesting observation, I guess a good boat gives you a chance to win every race, the rest is up to the knuckleheads sailing the boat.  Also has me wondering if a top level crew could win on a 6ksb.  Would be a very interesting experiment.

 

Hitchhiker

Hoopy Frood
4,512
1,202
Saquo-Pilia Hensha
 Seriously, what kind of psychopath sails without music playing???  My god, the horror!  :)   For sure any limitations about the boat were more on the part of the owner and crew and not the boat.
I recently spent 7 days 8 hours racing to Hawaii with out any music.  No pleasant at all, but stereo not required either.  I have become a convert to portable speakers and ipods.

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
You have to remember that the Fastnet is a race of tidal gates and changing winds. So if your boat is just the right speed to get to the turns at the right time then you are likely to do well. But if yours is then others in the same class of boat are probably not that far away either. Whereas 10% faster or slower and you can be screwed. So I would expect some consistency of results between boats of the same class. What stands out to me from your analysis is actually how little that is the case and therefore how much is down to how well the boats are set-up and sailed. 

Which is good.
I absolutely agree, external factors play an enormous role here.

On the other hand, we should note two things:

1. the consistency with which some teams / owners turn out good results: Sun Hill is a very well managed amateur crew, Léon is very professional as well. I think local knowledge as in these two examples plays out and was even more important this year with the Cherbourg finish.

2. A good design gives you more options to be where you want to be. Esp. given the TSS (note how many finishers got penalties), pointing ability in this race can be decisive. If you've got a good boat, you can manage the tidals gates far better, with a slow boat, you're always struggling to make it.

 

JonRowe

Super Anarchist
1,841
984
Offshore.
Respectfully, not sure I would agree with that, at least in my experience.
Like I say, thats just what the rumour mill says, I've not sailed on one personally, so if you have then your experience has more weight. As this is the internet and not pub banter I'll now STFU :)  

 
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