slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #41
Not familiar with the name
Favorite Standing Rigging Systems for Bluewater Boats?
- Thread starter Kolibri
- Start date
slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #43
Oh
I’m an old sailor…started full time sailing in 1976 and only stopped when the COVID closed the world and I packed it in
Plenty of rigging books , plus I’ve destroyed piles of rigging .. perhaps write my own book on broken stuff
The classic thoughts on rigging and boats is rod Stevens
Good for your lifetime collection
I’m an old sailor…started full time sailing in 1976 and only stopped when the COVID closed the world and I packed it in
Plenty of rigging books , plus I’ve destroyed piles of rigging .. perhaps write my own book on broken stuff
The classic thoughts on rigging and boats is rod Stevens
Good for your lifetime collection
It's no big thang (having done it a few times). Just be slow and gentle. You need at least 3 and preferably 4 people.
Tie up alongside a longish dock. No finger dock. Remove sail. Loosen the drum/turnbuckle at deck level. Drop lifelines on dock side.
Send somebody up the mast (Person 4). Attach a halyard to the top wire connector or to the upper swivel bearing shackle. Then remove masthead/upper clevis pen. Person 2 removes lower clevis pin at deck level. Person 1 tends the halyard and slowly lowers the furler. Person 2 shifts drum etc aft a bit past the bow pulpit. The foil WILL flex slightly during this but just be chill. Person 3 on the dock grabs the lower end and starts walking it forward along the dock as person 1 continues to lower it. Person 2 at the bow keeps supporting/guiding it along and then steps onto the dock with the head of the unit as it gets down.
Ajax
Super Anarchist
I'll paste this in an email to myself or something. Thanks.
slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #46
It’s a shame …S and S , on thier website previously had a file called “ type plans “. A fantastic collection of design details like fuel tank sumps, sea chest design , companionways , steering systems , stem heads , anchor rollers….the best knowledge from a lifetime spent designing the best boats
this file was taken down…perhaps copyright
I’ll bet that with enough searching you can find someone with these files ….Type plans
@Zonker, why make the mast guy do the hard work? Whenever I've lowered a furler the person on deck removes the lower clevis pin first.
@Ajax, if you are going to replace all the standing rigging you're going to have the mast unstepped right? so just let a boatyard deal with the furler and then it's their problem if it gets damaged. Also the mki foils are the same as the mkiii foils, with differences in shiny-ness (assuming you dont have the old roll-pin foils). Parts aren't available from Harken necessarily but some rigging shops might have some spare connectors or foils about.
@Ajax, if you are going to replace all the standing rigging you're going to have the mast unstepped right? so just let a boatyard deal with the furler and then it's their problem if it gets damaged. Also the mki foils are the same as the mkiii foils, with differences in shiny-ness (assuming you dont have the old roll-pin foils). Parts aren't available from Harken necessarily but some rigging shops might have some spare connectors or foils about.
slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #48
Yah
stem head pin out , rap some towels over the furling drum to prevent topsides scratch , swing aft over the side next to the mast, then lower with a halyard
careful not to bend the foil
a some systems it best to have a kinda bridle or second halyard to support the foil when lowering
I lower foils safely by un-pinning the deck, then up the rig, securely attach halyard to headstay, un pin upper end. Then have one person walking lower unit away from boat pulling as hard as possible. 2nd person eases halyard. You are fighting to prevent overbending, esp at the joints.
When pulling the spar, have pole topping lift attached to upper swivel & another loose linne over lower spreader & tied to foil. As spar gets lifted, ease foil in to spar. Tension t/l & loose line to hold foils against spar as mast is pivoted to horizontal. Stepping is the reverse
When pulling the spar, have pole topping lift attached to upper swivel & another loose linne over lower spreader & tied to foil. As spar gets lifted, ease foil in to spar. Tension t/l & loose line to hold foils against spar as mast is pivoted to horizontal. Stepping is the reverse
We used heat set dynema for all our standing rigging. It's a tradtionally rigged gaff rig with deadeyes and soft eyes around the mast. It's all parceled and served. Much better than the galvanized wire in my mind. However, for a typical production boat sloop I think you should replace with something similar.
Jud - s/v Sputnik
Super Anarchist
I installed a new furler with three people - key is a few hands, not bending the foils, and being tied alongside a long dock.
Profurl’s manual for my furler had decent background info on this (tying alongside, raising foil assembly, etc). Might be worth looking for: https://www.wichardamerica.com/
Jud - s/v Sputnik
Super Anarchist
A key part of the age-old triumvirate of sailors’ woes: time, chafe, and women.
(Re: Dyneema, I took Estar’s advice on this for my removable Solent stay and went stainless. Think he said they had a stainless removable stay for offshore work, and a Dyneema one for inshore/coastal, where failure is less critical.)
Ajax
Super Anarchist
slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #55
Many times that’s a fools game
typically at rigging replacement the entire mast needs a good service …right down to electric cabling
only time I’ve replaced rigging on a standing mast , mizzen mast , was because it was not possible to haul it out
very time consuming job
get a good bosun chair with leg supports so that you don’t get blood clots
Jud - s/v Sputnik
Super Anarchist
I think the only tricky ones are the uppers. Rigger suggested I do those with mast down, so I did. The rest I’ve been doing piece by piece in situ. (I did more or less rebuild/rewire/repaint mast previously when it was down earlier, before I did the uppers.)
TheDragon
Super Anarchist
I enjoyed those videos from Brion Toss, although his monotone delivery also gave me a good nap in video 3/5. And where is video 5/5? Did he just run out of things to comment on? When I was looking for a boat in the PNW he was widely recommended as someone to ask to survey the rigging.
I am glad to see he recommends the Sta-Lok system I used to replace the lower swages on my rigging, and that he recommends filling the Sta-Lok with goop to prevent salt water getting in there, which is what I am convinced caused the wires to begin breaking at the bottom swages on my boat. At the risk of once again being ridiculed, with the agreement of the rigger I hired to help me take down the Profurl and the forestay (yes, it was nerve-wracking and we did it on a less-than-finger slip, but no sweat as he had an entire spare identical used one I bought from him cheap), I kept all the original tangs, turnbuckles, and chainplates as well as the wires, and just replaced the bottom swages with long-stud Sta-Loks. Only time will tell if I made the right choice, and for peace of mind I will have dyneema backups for the top shrouds and fore- and back-stays, plus stout sheets backing up the lower shrouds as the way I do those provides a nice handhold. Pics below. Total cost was $800, $600 for the 8 Sta-Loks and $200 to ship them to Vuda Point Marina in Fiji (shipped from UK to US dealer, then to my wife in Illinois, then to delivery service in LA, then to Fiji). And I replaced each swage in turn, no need to lift the mast, which would have been very expensive.
I am glad to see he recommends the Sta-Lok system I used to replace the lower swages on my rigging, and that he recommends filling the Sta-Lok with goop to prevent salt water getting in there, which is what I am convinced caused the wires to begin breaking at the bottom swages on my boat. At the risk of once again being ridiculed, with the agreement of the rigger I hired to help me take down the Profurl and the forestay (yes, it was nerve-wracking and we did it on a less-than-finger slip, but no sweat as he had an entire spare identical used one I bought from him cheap), I kept all the original tangs, turnbuckles, and chainplates as well as the wires, and just replaced the bottom swages with long-stud Sta-Loks. Only time will tell if I made the right choice, and for peace of mind I will have dyneema backups for the top shrouds and fore- and back-stays, plus stout sheets backing up the lower shrouds as the way I do those provides a nice handhold. Pics below. Total cost was $800, $600 for the 8 Sta-Loks and $200 to ship them to Vuda Point Marina in Fiji (shipped from UK to US dealer, then to my wife in Illinois, then to delivery service in LA, then to Fiji). And I replaced each swage in turn, no need to lift the mast, which would have been very expensive.
Jim in Halifax
Super Anarchist
Agreed. I think the bottom swages act like little buckets, catching water and accumulating salt (or freezing in my part of the world). How did the wire stands look when you opened them up to install the long-stud Sta-loks?
robtoujours
Communist
Haven't read the Rod Stephens book for a long time, it's a good one. Apropos topics here he says:
"The old fashioned bronze turnbuckle with the open barrel and cotter pins is still the best way to go. They may not look quite as high-tech as closed-barrel turnbuckles or as decorative as chrome plated ones, but that’s not the point. The open barrel lets you see exactly how many turns are left on the threaded ends, it’s easy to lubricate, and you have positive twist control with properly fitted cotter pins.
It’s very important that all the turnbuckles turn the same way. I prefer having the end of the turnbuckle with the right-hand thread down so that they turn the normal way to tighten and loosen. But some shroud-end fittings require that the right-hand thread of the turnbuckle be up. In that case, for heaven’s sake, be sure that all the turnbuckles are installed the same way. This will tremendously simplify making adjustments to the standing rigging.
The best way to make sure you won’t have trouble adjusting the turnbuckles is to keep them lubricated. I’ve never found anything that works better than anhydrous lanolin. It’s rather gooey, but it stands up well to sun and salt water, and one application will easily last a long season. Incidentally, I use anhydrous lanolin for all heavy on-deck and rigging lubricating jobs - mast and boom slides, genoa sheet tracks, companionway hatch slides, and so on. It’s the only lubricant I know that will stay on for even two or three years in salt water conditions.
...
Which is better for standing rigging - wire or rod? Well, they both have good and bad points, and there’s no absolute answer. For general pleasure sailing, though, in boats with conservative rigs and reasonably wide shroud angles and chainplate spreads, I think 1x19 wire is best. First and foremost, wire will slightly cushion heavy shock loads on the rigging, which definitely reduces the danger of breaking something.
Furthermore, wire is easier to handle, transport, and stow, and it will take more abuse without serious damage. You must always get expert application of terminal fittings, either swaging or the mechanical Norseman type. But for a quick, on-board fix with wire you can always use bulldog clamps; the Norseman-type terminals make an even stronger temporary repair with no special tools.
Another advantage of wire is that when it begins to fatigue, an individual strand may break and stand out from the wire. This is a good early warning system for fatigue in the wire. Rod rigging gives no such warning.
...
In fact, I’m very much in favor of having running backstays on any boat that may be sailed offshore, even with a masthead rig. I think any boat that goes to sea should have a removable forestay, and that means runners to match. With a masthead rig you won’t use them much, but if you ever get caught in a hard breeze you’ll be very glad to have an inner forestay and lower runners to reduce the mast pumping and to save your bacon is anything happens to the headstay or permanent backstay.
...
Another detail to pay attention to is the design of the tangs that attach the shrouds and stays to the mast. They must come away from the mast at exactly the same angle the shroud is going to take. Otherwise both tang and shroud will be subject to fatigue. Second, the tang’s plates should be symmetrical; on badly designed tangs the mast side is virtually flat while the outboard one is quite steeply angled, which induces an uneven strain and puts the clevis pin at an angle to the lines of force.
The clevis pin that goes through the two tang plates and the shroud terminal fitting must be just the right diameter and length, so that it makes a good fit and doesn’t stick out unnecessarily. And, of course, its cotter pin should be correctly fitted. (Here is an especially good place to countersink the pins’ holes a little. If you ever have to replace a shroud aloft, you’ll be glad you did.)
One more thing about the tangs. All the bolts or screws securing them to a metal mast - including those holding the spreaders to the mast - should be tightened up with Loctite or a similar product, so they don’t loosen themselves.
...
There’s no doubt that technology has made a lot of improvements possible. But I still think that when it comes to standing rigging, simpler is better. And I can’t help remembering my experience with MUSTANG.
She had two well-spread lower shrouds, intermediates, top shrouds and strut stays for her fractional rig. All 1x19 wire. We had no turnbuckles at all on the intermediates - they were made exactly the length I wanted them and the first year I had the boat, and that’s the way they stayed. So we had a much safer and simpler rig. And no adjustments were ever necessary. Except for the permanent and running backstays, we never changed the tension on anything, never adjusted a turnbuckle, for the next 25 years. Zero.
In the autumn I’d back off six turns on the starboard shroud turnbuckles, oil them, pin them and put a tag on them. Then in the spring when the mast was stepped, we’d put those six turns back in again. Once or twice the boat was launched just before a race, and we never were at any handicap - we knew everything would be just right. And that is how it worked out."
"The old fashioned bronze turnbuckle with the open barrel and cotter pins is still the best way to go. They may not look quite as high-tech as closed-barrel turnbuckles or as decorative as chrome plated ones, but that’s not the point. The open barrel lets you see exactly how many turns are left on the threaded ends, it’s easy to lubricate, and you have positive twist control with properly fitted cotter pins.
It’s very important that all the turnbuckles turn the same way. I prefer having the end of the turnbuckle with the right-hand thread down so that they turn the normal way to tighten and loosen. But some shroud-end fittings require that the right-hand thread of the turnbuckle be up. In that case, for heaven’s sake, be sure that all the turnbuckles are installed the same way. This will tremendously simplify making adjustments to the standing rigging.
The best way to make sure you won’t have trouble adjusting the turnbuckles is to keep them lubricated. I’ve never found anything that works better than anhydrous lanolin. It’s rather gooey, but it stands up well to sun and salt water, and one application will easily last a long season. Incidentally, I use anhydrous lanolin for all heavy on-deck and rigging lubricating jobs - mast and boom slides, genoa sheet tracks, companionway hatch slides, and so on. It’s the only lubricant I know that will stay on for even two or three years in salt water conditions.
...
Which is better for standing rigging - wire or rod? Well, they both have good and bad points, and there’s no absolute answer. For general pleasure sailing, though, in boats with conservative rigs and reasonably wide shroud angles and chainplate spreads, I think 1x19 wire is best. First and foremost, wire will slightly cushion heavy shock loads on the rigging, which definitely reduces the danger of breaking something.
Furthermore, wire is easier to handle, transport, and stow, and it will take more abuse without serious damage. You must always get expert application of terminal fittings, either swaging or the mechanical Norseman type. But for a quick, on-board fix with wire you can always use bulldog clamps; the Norseman-type terminals make an even stronger temporary repair with no special tools.
Another advantage of wire is that when it begins to fatigue, an individual strand may break and stand out from the wire. This is a good early warning system for fatigue in the wire. Rod rigging gives no such warning.
...
In fact, I’m very much in favor of having running backstays on any boat that may be sailed offshore, even with a masthead rig. I think any boat that goes to sea should have a removable forestay, and that means runners to match. With a masthead rig you won’t use them much, but if you ever get caught in a hard breeze you’ll be very glad to have an inner forestay and lower runners to reduce the mast pumping and to save your bacon is anything happens to the headstay or permanent backstay.
...
Another detail to pay attention to is the design of the tangs that attach the shrouds and stays to the mast. They must come away from the mast at exactly the same angle the shroud is going to take. Otherwise both tang and shroud will be subject to fatigue. Second, the tang’s plates should be symmetrical; on badly designed tangs the mast side is virtually flat while the outboard one is quite steeply angled, which induces an uneven strain and puts the clevis pin at an angle to the lines of force.
The clevis pin that goes through the two tang plates and the shroud terminal fitting must be just the right diameter and length, so that it makes a good fit and doesn’t stick out unnecessarily. And, of course, its cotter pin should be correctly fitted. (Here is an especially good place to countersink the pins’ holes a little. If you ever have to replace a shroud aloft, you’ll be glad you did.)
One more thing about the tangs. All the bolts or screws securing them to a metal mast - including those holding the spreaders to the mast - should be tightened up with Loctite or a similar product, so they don’t loosen themselves.
...
There’s no doubt that technology has made a lot of improvements possible. But I still think that when it comes to standing rigging, simpler is better. And I can’t help remembering my experience with MUSTANG.
She had two well-spread lower shrouds, intermediates, top shrouds and strut stays for her fractional rig. All 1x19 wire. We had no turnbuckles at all on the intermediates - they were made exactly the length I wanted them and the first year I had the boat, and that’s the way they stayed. So we had a much safer and simpler rig. And no adjustments were ever necessary. Except for the permanent and running backstays, we never changed the tension on anything, never adjusted a turnbuckle, for the next 25 years. Zero.
In the autumn I’d back off six turns on the starboard shroud turnbuckles, oil them, pin them and put a tag on them. Then in the spring when the mast was stepped, we’d put those six turns back in again. Once or twice the boat was launched just before a race, and we never were at any handicap - we knew everything would be just right. And that is how it worked out."
slug zitski
Banned
- Banned
- #60
When standing rigging is new you polish the terminals
Then each season you polish them again
Terminals must always be polished and bright
This is the only way to spot a defect with your eye
Then each season you polish them again
Terminals must always be polished and bright
This is the only way to spot a defect with your eye
