Flying Tiger 13.8

[Dubois]

Given the market for this boat is more about comparative performance, not price (have you seen the annual race budget!?), I see a black interior with pipe cots... and a spot for the optional auxiliary motor to run the power winches… and a f*#k off big stereo on which Billy Furtwangler is playing around with Dicky Wagner’s ‘Ring’!

What happened to the FT 12.5?

When can I have an FTP 52?!

 

[us7070]

OK- so it is OD, Cat1 offshore racer.... ..."Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must becompletely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."

Maybe to get the discussion started...or at least refreshed...

Where do people stand on SSB? The ground plane may be a whole lot easier to install while the boat is being built. Is it skipped (hoping TP and others change the rules to make sat phones equivalent) or required?

Batteries. Bank of two or one?

A means to replace rudder or an alternative steering system?

Once we see more of the plans we will also know more about tankage capacity (vs water-makers)...

Sails- of course a contentious issues... Presumably (besides trysail and storm-jib) one main, two jibs, code 0, 2 AP, and code 6?

Without ironing these out boats could be on the line as a OD where there is 300lbs-800lbs difference and a large difference in cost.

James Gilmore

Uncontrollable Urge

#56603

Well, SSB is always a huge argument...

Mostly though, the argument is about the cost of adding it to existing boats that are on a tight budget. Presumably on this one, the cost isn't much of a factor, so that leaves the weight. If everyone has an SSB, then the weight doesn't really matter, so I think it's worth the added safety margin. I have used satphones for years, and think they're great, but I like having SSB too.

Designing in a way to fit a good alternate steering system, from the very beginning, would be very smart. Most of the systems I have seen probably wouldn't work in anything over 10kts.

Is there really a chance of OD racing in something like this? I doubt it, so sails should be up to the owners.

Any 45ft boat doing serious distance racing will have a watermaker.

Given the electrical demands on modern offshore boats, a robust battery system is a requirement.

 

[canstead]

God I hate to mention it, but IRC competitive?

 

[bslevin87]

God I hate to mention it, but IRC competitive?

If your not ODing it it has to be IRC competative. when bob gives us more info we shall see if it will be, just have some faith.

 

[Pavook]

Nice to finally see some progress on the FT 12.8/13.5/big boat. I am very interested in the boat, and the eventual quality/pricing.

Since I assume you are actively looking for input and opinions, here are a few of mine.

Steering Make it 2 smaller wheels. – easier to move around the cockpit, particularly with the grinder trade off is a bit more expensive (but you don’t need it recessed into the hull).

Grinder – not so sure. In concept, great, but the cost and complexity is likely too much. I would like this to be affordable! Loads for a lighter 43- 45 footer should still be manageable on a standard winch.

Retractable rudder – means a barrel like rudder system, like the old Vara rudder, or like on the new SC37. lots of benefits. Storage, spares, transport, etc. or simpler yet, how about dual transome hung rudders....

Keel – can you make it retract 3 feet? If not, can you make it an easy to remove keel. By that I mean something that doesn’t need to be re-faired every time you re-install. How about a deep, tight, slot in the hull that the keel slides into. Inside you have a slightly raised keel box and keel is bolted in.

Weight – keep it below 13,500. less load, faster to plane.

High ballast ratio – like close to 50%. Means less weight required on rail and easier to sail shorthanded on its feet.

Backstay – simple, single line. Hydraulic is nice but not necessary. If you have it on a purchase and lead it to a winch in pit, it means you can have a flicker, have enough power via the winch, AND the backstay can be controlled by main or jib trimmer or crew in the pit. Adjustment is quicker, finer, and it can accommodate a square top main.

Centerline mounted pole under an 18 inch prod (removable?). Better strength, pole is always on centerline, prod can support a code 0 (which is a must with a non overlapping headsail). Pole should only retract into forepeak locker, not into forepeak cabin. Removes wetness issues. Downside of center mounted is access to forepeak locker – but it just means you need a hatch that is slightly off center. Also cant’ use a recessed roller furler – needs to be above deck.

Minimalist but functional interior – enough to keep spouse happy. Enclosed head mostly. Simple galley. No wood or wood trim.

 

[U20guy2]

"Twin rudders and a retractable sprit make a bold statement about this--------design's intended hunting grounds. The -----also has a performance mainsheet system—double-ended and led each side of the cockpit—so out of the box it's headed for the starting gate. Still, even, or perhaps especially, cruising sailors will appreciate the control the rudders will give over the powerful hull.

The boat comes kitted out with three or four cabins and appointments to customary -------- standards with maple-veneered panels and walnut highlights.

A large crew will have lots of room to maneuver in the spacious duel helm cockpit and once the day's activities wind down can gather around the table that emerges from its stowage in the cockpit sole."

Hmm sounds like a cheaper version of a boat that I like.

I pulled the above description from Sailing world thought it sounded a bit familiar reading the posts above.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/boats-and-gea...view-54550.html

 

[Pavook]

"Twin rudders and a retractable sprit make a bold statement about this--------I pulled the above description from Sailing world thought it sounded a bit familiar reading the posts above.
http://www.cruisingworld.com/boats-and-gea...view-54550.html

ya, it does. except the elan 450 weights in at over 25000 pounds! this needs to be 1/2 that and 1/2 the price. otherwise it is another mee too in an already crowded market.

 

[frozenhawaiian]

sounds like the general consensus is a make it a pure race boat not a racer cruiser.

 

[JungleJim]

I am not sure Kernan's Klub 44 is a very good comparison boat- the brief for it is primarily an inshore club racer with the ability to go offshore. I would hope the FT13.8 is the opposite- an offshore boat that can also be used inshore. My guess is also that the Klub 44 is higher tech (and therefore, more costly).

Going for transom-hung or dual rudders may be a good idea: simple and easy to fix. The downside is that it appears that manufacturing these things is quite an art.

Totally second the concerns on the bowsprit- is there a way to keep these from leaking other than mounting on the deck? Maybe the back of the sprit encasing could be a screw-off with an O ring (perhaps with same dimensions as black PVC so O ring and the like are easy to find). This would allow access to the sprit for rigging, but would otherwise be sealed off...

I like the idea of an 18" prod for the code 0. Putting a bobstay on the sprit and trying to hoist a code 0 from it seems like a disaster waiting to happen. The grinder I would need more info on the added cost as I have never used these. I also revert to the "what if it breaks" question- will the remaining winches be beefy enough to be used if the grinder goes out of action?

Nav stations- there are really only three reasons to be down below: sleep, cooking, and navigating. A nav station that is centered like on the Class 40s is really appealing: easy to have conversations to the deck, minimal roll effects, all the info you need at your fingertips. I am not certain if this is more difficult to design or build, but I suppose it will have the effect of making the space appear smaller when below.

Single wheel, vs dual, vs tiller... Tiller is the most dependable, least expensive and gives the most feel... however, after having done a few of these long distance races using a tiller, they are just about as non-ergonomic as you can get. Yet, I would vote for simplicity- tiller, then single-wheel- however I can live with either one. Dual seems to add both expense and complexity.

James Gilmore

Uncontrollable Urge 56603

 

[Snapper]

Q:I have no idea where the long hair thing came from with it's association with classical music. I think it was Toscanini who had a marvelous flowing or maybe it was flipping comb over. Maybe it all goes back to Lizt and his influence on how music was performed and the level of showmanship he pioneered.

Crap. Would you homos just get a room adorned with blown up photos of your big hair conductors and get on with it? I'm suprised Bernstein isn't your favourite given this conversation.

For the record Von Karajan would be the best pick since he fits your girly bill AND he raced sailboats. Great conductor as well BTW.

 

[us7070]

Single wheel, vs dual, vs tiller... Tiller is the most dependable, least expensive and gives the most feel... however, after having done a few of these long distance races using a tiller, they are just about as non-ergonomic as you can get. Yet, I would vote for simplicity- tiller, then single-wheel- however I can live with either one. Dual seems to add both expense and complexity.
James Gilmore

Uncontrollable Urge 56603

So, I was looking around the Jeffa website, and found this - the "Swinging Pedastal"

Basically, there is one wheel, but it swings from port to starboard.

the site uses frames, so I can't put a direct link, but the link is newspage>swining pedastal concept

Jeffa Steering

 

[Jkdubz808]

Interesting to see coffee grinders on a boat of that size, but that is a fairly decent sized kite. As for the backstay issue, I think a line system using spectra w/ a flicker is gonna be the solution. It has 3 winches on both sides, with one set aft. Seeing as how she has swept back spreaders and no runners leads me to believe those winches are for an adjustable line backstay. I know, I know, thats an obvious observation. A good enough flicker will lift a spectra backstay enough to get it over the roach of that main.

 

[Yachtsman]

No running backs, keep the rig simple. Have all the boats with a 100% and a code zero, no overlapping jibs, no grinder, big winches.

Tiller would be my preference but a single big wheel with a very fast ratio might be acceptable, 3/4 or 1 turn lock to lock. Then the wheel could be asymmetrical (flat on the bottom and top folds down) then when in dock you could crank it to one side and have more cockpit access.

Removable keel would be cool. Keep the gap tight and straight make the class rules prohibit fairing the joint.

SSB grounding plate would be a nice touch could have a glass dummy on all the boats then the ones that choose SSB could sub the proper plate.

If the keel is reasonably removable then the rudders should be similar.

Goal would be to have a trailerable boat using a trailer like that one J/125 where the boat gets rotated on an angle for transport.

I personally would only need ORC Cat 2 but having the boat Cat 1 capable and fit on a trailer would be very cool.

Nav station on centerline might be nice.

Keep the interior simple pipe births above built in lower bunks, gimbaled oven, enclosed head, white interior. Leave a spot for water makers, heaters etc but not part of the standard spec.

Set up for 5-6 crew for buoy racing and 8-10 for distance racing.

My $0.02

J

 

[Bob Perry]

The swinging pedesatl is interesting. I first designed such a system back when I was about 15 years old. Of course it was never built but I thought the idea was cool. Did that old Bill Tripp Sr. boat X-TOUCHE have a swinging pedestal?

 

[GybeSet]

The swinging pedesatl is interesting. I first designed such a system back when I was about 15 years old. Of course it was never built but I thought the idea was cool. Did that old Bill Tripp Sr. boat X-TOUCHE have a swinging pedestal?

Dick Cawse (Vanguard) from the CYCA also has a 'tacking wheel' system

It's on a few 40 somethings, works

 

[Jkdubz808]

Is the tacking wheel a mechanical system or does the skipper have to do it manually? I've never seen it on any boat before. Seems to me you'd be shit outta luck if the wheels breaks and stays on one side. You could steer, just not 100% efficiently. I agree with the no runners, I sail on a boat with runners (1996 Farr 43, the old Flash Gordon) I can tell you they suck. A backstay system similar to what the TP52s are using would be great. I also agree with only using 100% jibs and assyms.

-CC

 

[frozenhawaiian]

some people have mentioned the need to be able to readily attach an emergency tiller or spare emergency rudder during offshore racing.

why not a flat transom and just out the 2 mounts for an emergency tiller on the transom? and as for attaching an emergency tiller, I was on criminal today and the rudder stock come straight up through to the deck and it has a mount for a tiller on the end, why not a system like this?

just a thought. and I say keep the coffee grinder. double wheels, idk if thats really necessary, depending on beam you could probably get away with a single wheel and for sure could have a tiller. hell there are TP 52's using a tiller.

 

[Bob Perry]

Current decision is to make the stock boat with a tiller. Wheel/wheels will be options as will the grinder.

 

[Jkdubz808]

Thats good, I dunno if people are gonna want grinders and a wheel. You can feel the boat so much better through a tiller. Besides, less parts to malfunction with a tiller. Been on a Farr 40 in SF bay that busted the steering cable outside the Golden Gate by Mile Rock....not fun. And as for the grinders...c'mon. Boat is to small for them. Frozenhawaiian is right, the TP52s are using tillers, Rage had a tiller, I've even seen a custom 65 footer (older R/P design looked like) with a tilller. Maybe its just that I am not a fan of wheels haha.

 

[Yachtsman]

Current decision is to make the stock boat with a tiller.

Nice!

What are the thoughts on the power plant?

J