Flying Tiger 13.8

[Pavook]

Bob, Bill, Loco,

DO NOT make two different keels, and DO not make the standard keel too shallow. you are totally compromising the performance of the boat. there is no better way to increase perfomance and reduce crew than high stability. that means the deeper the draft the better.

The J105 had a shoal draft option and on mass all of them changed to a deep draft one year. the shoal just had really really shitty performance. dont make the same mistake.

as for how to engineer a lifting keel, just put it in a floor to cieling, fitted, keel box. keeps it water tight, distributes load, etc. have some water tight access hatches to access the bolts that hold it up/down. then use an electric winch with some ihgh stregth line. simple. efective, and you will only really use it to get in and out of the dock. offshore or racing you bolt it down and GO.

 

[Snarley]

Question; Can we go with a deeper keel if it is a lift keel and reduce the weight of the bulb? Just how deep is too deep when the boat is sailing in your area?

Because lifting 5000lbs or less a distance of 42-54" may be a lot easier than lifting 8000lbs 30". Plus the reduction in weight will of course make your boat a bit faster.

 

[us7070]

the "stock" boat shouldn't be compromised for great lakes sailors - sorry.

if you want a "shoal draft" version, fine, but make the stock version as good as it can be.

if your water is only 7ft deep, you need to sail smaller boats -or catamarans, or something...

having said that, if the stock version has 9ft draft, a lot of people will benefit from a lifting keel to get in and out of harbors.

lifting keels are _not_ new and untested...

here is a 56ft Bill Tripp cruising design from 2001 - built by Turner Yachts - with a lifting keel....

yachtworld listing for Brigadoon

Draft= 12'6" down, 7'6" up, Ballast = 11,100lbs

don't the STP 65's also have lifting keels?

 

[neuronz]

don't the STP 65's also have lifting keels?

Container certainly not, saw it in Dusseldorf few weeks ago.

I also think a lifting keel is heavier than standard keel attachment so no one will built one into his state of the art raceboat.

and where do you need a lifting keel right in the middle of the ocean?

 

[us7070]

don't the STP 65's also have lifting keels?

Container certainly not, saw it in Dusseldorf few weeks ago.

I also think a lifting keel is heavier than standard keel attachment so no one will built one into his state of the art raceboat.

and where do you need a lifting keel right in the middle of the ocean?

from the STP-65 Rules:

8. Keel and Rudder8.1 The yacht shall have a single centerplane fixed keel. It shall have a keel lifting system to raise the draft when not racing.

8.2 The yacht shall be able to raise, lower and lock the keel without outside assistance.

8.2.1 All racing shall be done with the keel in the lowest position.

8.2.2 The keel shall be able to be lifted from its lowest position to 3.33m in less than 10 minutes.

8.2.3 The lifting system shall have a positive locking system in the up and down position.

8.2.4 While raising and lowering the keel it shall have a redundant system to guard against falling.

http://www.stp-65.org/1.2ei.pdf

 

[glexpress]

Shife, Dude, you know that none of us WANT to have to go into water that's less than 7' deep. The old technology was a "shoal draft" like the mighty Colt 45. And today's technology...... Well I think there are going to be a lot of people waiting and watching. ANd maybe a few owners that dock near you too.
Cost of maintenance? Well there isn't a choice. Read my lips, THE WATER ISN"T DEEP ENOUGH!

Lots of room for deep draft boats at BYC now. The bigger problem is that the lake isn't as deep as the darn docks are. Talisman looks dead sexy tied up in Conner Creek, but probably not going to see her doing any St Clair races any time soon. Courtesan is solving their depth issue in a manner that makes me drool with envy and she should be a much more common sight on the lake this summer.
I think it really boils down to what is realistic for a boat this big. Is it possible to do a 7ft draft on a boat this size without making too many compromises or running the costs sky high?

9 Feet is fine. This boat is just not meant for shallow lakes.

 

[barleymalt]

A 9' draft is fine in most of the GL, it would be a potential problem in Detroit and parts of Lake Erie. It is still possible in Detroit, there are just areas of Lk St Stupid that would be iffy. Realistically Chicago is the biggest potential GL market anyway, it seems like a lot of cost and complexity added to the boat to make it something it really isn't.

 

[mvining1]

Bob, Bill, Loco, DO NOT make two different keels, and DO not make the standard keel too shallow. you are totally compromising the performance of the boat. there is no better way to increase perfomance and reduce crew than high stability. that means the deeper the draft the better.

The J105 had a shoal draft option and on mass all of them changed to a deep draft one year. the shoal just had really really shitty performance. dont make the same mistake.

Agreed. Sailing Shoal draft sucks.

9 Feet is fine. This boat is just not meant for shallow lakes.

I hope you're kidding. Like the shallow lakes where you're from? The 5% of places you can't go are all the places you need to go. Harbors.

Ever done a Mac transport back to Detroit and had to cannonball it from Mac City (After hitting bottom) right to Port Huron? (Where you ran aground in the Black River.) How about not being able to go into the Host Club for the party in a race where you were first to finish and Won? Finally, ever not been able to leave the Club for a race because the water depth was down and so you miss the race? Ever had to consider either quitting the Club where you are a member or joining a second Club just to you could get a bigger boat?

I have. And every guy round here I know who can afford a boat like the Tiger 13.8 has also. Some just choose to get over it easier. A lot just get rid of the boats and move on to something else to spend their money on.

If you could sail a 9' draft boat round here, everyone who could afford one would. You can't, so some have elected to sail 4 knot shit boxes like Express 27's.

Like Bob, I am so tired of all the people who give me all the reasons why something won't work or can't be done. The person who finds the solution to this problem will sell a lot.

I do like the hydraulic "bottle jack" idea. Only heavy where it doesn't matter. Cheap and simple.

A lot of boats have a table in the center of the cabin any ways. A lifting mechanism and keel box that lifted the keel about 3' would not need be bigger that that table. It would not need to be used while sailing but only while motoring so the engine could drive the hydraulic pump to power the "bottle jacks." Or even manual with a hand pump down below for KISS.

The SR33 was a production boat with a lifting keel. It uses an electric winch above the keel that pulls the keel up. The deck must have been built stronger. It was really only useful for getting it to a shallow hoist and on the trailer and not every day use while sailing IMHO. I did hear the the designer used it in downwind runs also, but I sailed on one for a year and can't imagine that...... The keel also was only round 3500 pounds total.

 

[glexpress]

Bob, Bill, Loco, DO NOT make two different keels, and DO not make the standard keel too shallow. you are totally compromising the performance of the boat. there is no better way to increase perfomance and reduce crew than high stability. that means the deeper the draft the better.

The J105 had a shoal draft option and on mass all of them changed to a deep draft one year. the shoal just had really really shitty performance. dont make the same mistake.

Agreed. Sailing Shoal draft sucks.

9 Feet is fine. This boat is just not meant for shallow lakes.

I hope you're kidding. Like the shallow lakes where you're from? The 5% of places you can't go are all the places you need to go. Harbors.

Ever done a Mac transport back to Detroit and had to cannonball it from Mac City (After hitting bottom) right to Port Huron? (Where you ran aground in the Black River.) How about not being able to go into the Host Club for the party in a race where you were first to finish and Won? Finally, ever not been able to leave the Club for a race because the water depth was down and so you miss the race? Ever had to consider either quitting the Club where you are a member or joining a second Club just to you could get a bigger boat?

I have. And every guy round here I know who can afford a boat like the Tiger 13.8 has also. Some just choose to get over it easier. A lot just get rid of the boats and move on to something else to spend their money on.

If you could sail a 9' draft boat round here, everyone who could afford one would. You can't, so some have elected to sail 4 knot shit boxes like Express 27's.

Like Bob, I am so tired of all the people who give me all the reasons why something won't work or can't be done. The person who finds the solution to this problem will sell a lot.

I do like the hydraulic "bottle jack" idea. Only heavy where it doesn't matter. Cheap and simple.

A lot of boats have a table in the center of the cabin any ways. A lifting mechanism and keel box that lifted the keel about 3' would not need be bigger that that table. It would not need to be used while sailing but only while motoring so the engine could drive the hydraulic pump to power the "bottle jacks." Or even manual with a hand pump down below for KISS.

The SR33 was a production boat with a lifting keel. It uses an electric winch above the keel that pulls the keel up. The deck must have been built stronger. It was really only useful for getting it to a shallow hoist and on the trailer and not every day use while sailing IMHO. I did hear the the designer used it in downwind runs also, but I sailed on one for a year and can't imagine that...... The keel also was only round 3500 pounds total.

Look the bottom line is Great Lakes sailors aren't the first consideration when designing a 44 foot boat, and we shouldn't. I'm not saying Bob can or can't do anything other than changing the keel to attract a couple of potential buyers on the GL's.

And what Barley said, there plenty of 9' or greater draft boats in the Great Lakes, so they can't get around well in our neck of the woods, get over it.

 

[Snarley]

Yes the STP 65 Rosebud has a lifting keel. Without the lifting keel the boat would be unable to enter any noncommercial harbor.

The Santa Cruz 43 proposal has a lift keel as well and a 10 foot draft. Which drops the bulb weight to 6100 lbs. My question is if this boat goes to 11 foot draft can we drop the bulb weight to 5000lbs which saves you 2000lbs and drops your displacement to 12100lbs. This not only makes the potential for a faster boat, that planes earlier downhill for the West Coast distance racer but a boat that has a much easier time lifting the keel for the GL and East Coast owner. The hope is that for the owner that does not need the lift keel that the jack device is optional and removable.

This is a win win situation for every owner.

I would agree with Bill Stevens that 6.5" should be the goal for the keel lifted. That allows entry to the vast majority of Marinas and harbors as well as Yacht Club docks that host events. This is not just a Great Lakes issue. Look at not only how many J105 shoal drafts sold but the deep draft is still only 6'6". Not exactly deep.

 

[Lat21]

I don't hear people saying a lifting keel can't be done. I hear the question, should it be done? Great design is all about making the right tradeoffs to appeal to your broadest target market. If there is no extra weight/cost/reliability then by all means make it lift. And might as well make it cant while you're at it.

A lifting keel can be done but will:

1) cost more

2) reduce performance. More of the weight will be required higher up for a lift/slide mechanism raising the CG relative to the same amount of fixed ballast.

3) create extra moving parts that need to handle massive loads and therefore reduce reliability

So the question is do you make two designs -- deep keel and a lifting keel/shoal draft version? Or one lifting keel version or just make the optimal go fast version and let those that race in shallow areas deal with it (or they can buy the alternative shoal draft/lifting keel 45' racer that rates somewhere around 0 PHRF... is there anything even remotely close to this?).

I haven't sailed the great lakes, but I know they had the largest feet of 70' sleds in the world so apparently you can sell deep draft race boats in some parts.

I say make the optimal go fast, deep keel 45' offsore racer and then draw a shoal draft option for anyone that wants to write a check. I think few if any would be sold. Don't muck up the basic design with a lift mechanism. One of the core requirements for a classic race boat is tremendous durability. Look at J24s, Moore 24s, Olson 30s, J35s, SC50s, SC70s. Many these boats are still racing after more than 25 years.

 

[doghouse]

So the question is do you make two designs -- deep keel and a lifting keel/shoal draft version? Or one lifting keel version or just make the optimal go fast version and let those that race in shallow areas deal with it (or they can buy the alternative shoal draft/lifting keel 45' racer that rates somewhere around 0 PHRF... is there anything even remotely close to this?).

If this boat has even remotely the perfomace it's purported to, it will rate significantly lower than 0. I would guess around -30 or so.

 

[Snarley]

I agree with most of what Lat 21 has posted. It is just that many of the proposals that I am seeing show some form of lift keel in this size range. The design change looks more like an lengthened sportboat than the previous 13.8 proposal of a Racer Cruiser yacht.

If it has a lift keel it has to still be fast, fun and most of all affordable.....cheap in the basic version.

 

[buckeye]

" Ever had to consider either quitting the Club where you are a member or joining a second Club just to you could get a bigger boat?

I have. And every guy round here I know who can afford a boat like the Tiger 13.8 has also. Some just choose to get over it easier. A lot just get rid of the boats and move on to something else to spend their money on. "

Was it the j24 or the powerboat that would have had too much draft previously?

 

[Lat21]

So the question is do you make two designs -- deep keel and a lifting keel/shoal draft version? Or one lifting keel version or just make the optimal go fast version and let those that race in shallow areas deal with it (or they can buy the alternative shoal draft/lifting keel 45' racer that rates somewhere around 0 PHRF... is there anything even remotely close to this?).

If this boat has even remotely the perfomace it's purported to, it will rate significantly lower than 0. I would guess around -30 or so.

I don't really know what it will rate. I was just throwing out 0 as a nice round number and target for that shoal draft/lifting keel 45 foot alternative that people can buy instead of the FT13.

I agree it will probably be something under 0.

 

[doghouse]

So the question is do you make two designs -- deep keel and a lifting keel/shoal draft version? Or one lifting keel version or just make the optimal go fast version and let those that race in shallow areas deal with it (or they can buy the alternative shoal draft/lifting keel 45' racer that rates somewhere around 0 PHRF... is there anything even remotely close to this?).

If this boat has even remotely the perfomace it's purported to, it will rate significantly lower than 0. I would guess around -30 or so.

I don't really know what it will rate. I was just throwing out 0 as a nice round number and target for that shoal draft/lifting keel 45 foot alternative that people can buy instead of the FT13.

I agree it will probably be something under 0.

Right. I was just remarking it is supposed to perform better, but it could very well end up like you say at 0

 

[mvining1]

" Ever had to consider either quitting the Club where you are a member or joining a second Club just to you could get a bigger boat?
I have. And every guy round here I know who can afford a boat like the Tiger 13.8 has also. Some just choose to get over it easier. A lot just get rid of the boats and move on to something else to spend their money on. "

Was it the j24 or the powerboat that would have had too much draft previously?

First of all, fuck off newbie. And show me your tits.

The powerboat which is a REAL powerboat with 600 throbbing horsepower, draws 36" so it's not an issue. Wasn't an issue with the C&C 3/4 ton either. Because I wouldn't even consider joining the deep draft club round here, it's never even been a discussion point between me and my bride regarding a bigger boat, though she did recently mention she miss' the C&C and racing.

And what does yours draw?

 

[mvining1]

I agree with most of what Lat 21 has posted. It is just that many of the proposals that I am seeing show some form of lift keel in this size range. The design change looks more like an lengthened sportboat than the previous 13.8 proposal of a Racer Cruiser yacht.
If it has a lift keel it has to still be fast, fun and most of all affordable.....cheap in the basic version.

You got it!

 

[Kenny Dumas]

A few wacko ideas to get the creative juices flowing:

Maybe the bulb stays at 6-6" draft and you get the additional draft (hydrodynamic lift) with a centerboard that slides up inside the keel and drops down throught the center of the bulb. You don't have to lift the heavy bulb so everything is safer, cheaper, and no big trunk inside the cabin. The compromise is the upper keel section needs to be a little thicker, and reduced righting moment but maybe combine with enough water ballast to handle that.

Some type of canting mechanism would work if you split the weight somehow fore/aft or side/side. This seems pretty stupid at first, but the standard version could be a single canter and you spend extra for the shoal draft option with two canting mechanisms. In shoal draft mode you could cant half the bulb each direction and the boat stays level while reducing the draft.

flame away...

 

[Snarley]

When comparing proposals and built boats I have excluded rule boats such as IRC or Open 40's and instead looked at those built without a rule in mind and then also those that have cost in mind.

If there was actual competition for the 13.8 I think this would have been the boat.

Thompson 1280 - this is 2 feet shorter than the 13.8 44ft vs 42ft

One concern to keep in mind when the topic of keels comes up is that this boat has to meet current and future requirements for righting ability during major events such as Bermuda, Trans Pac etc. So some of the ideas for a shoal draft keel may just result in a considerable amount of lead in that bulb.