Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

[dogwatch]

We can already safely predict the boats will be expensive and there is sod all probability of much trickle down. I don't agree those criteria determine success or failure. What matters most is recapturing the public interest which was lost after AC32. Not in NZ where that's a given but elsewhere.  

 

[Tornado-Cat]

This is the sucess of the AC and you are right about it, I am more interested in the success of the boat and the pactical consequences for us sailors.

A good boat, able to trickle down, could also revive interest for sailing itself.

 

[arneelof]

We can already safely predict the boats will be expensive and there is sod all probability of much trickle down. I don't agree those criteria determine success or failure. What matters most is recapturing the public interest which was lost after AC32. Not in NZ where that's a given but elsewhere.  

Who says that interest was lost after AC32 ? The number of news articles has never been as high as during last cup in Sweden (who challenged a number of times). However - still very very low.

 

[dogwatch]

OK, AC35 was big in Sweden. If interest is so high, where are the teams? I don't particularly blame ETNZ for that, though the choice of boat didn't help. I blame LE.

 

[Priscilla]

For all the $billions that have poured into the AC how much trickle down has really found its way into progressing yacht design and fleets.

Imoca ,Vendee ,Minis, etc are providing far more radical and practical change than the Cup boats ever will.

The local fleet here is not exactly awash with trickle down technology that is the result of 30+years of competing in the AC.

 

[hughw]

Right.

My guess is that the next AC will be an historical flop or success.

A flop if the boats are expensive, slow, and don't trickle dow

A sucess if the boat has the speed of a multi, the safety of a mono, and trickles dow.

We should know soon, pretty exciting.

have to say I think this is an expensive white elephant - the rules have locked teams into one primary route and I have serious doubts as to the suitability for match racing, let alone anything else.

Safety of a mono?  Not a snowballs in hell chance of that - or can they have a panic button that returns the foils to the full down position in just a few seconds. Without scrunching some poor organ grinder that's been flicked out of the boat in the process?  Things happen very fast in foiling boats.

Exciting though?  Of course, watching people spend OPM with gay abandon is always fun!   And fortunately there seem to be some that are happy to have it spent.  Maybe.

 

[arneelof]

OK, AC35 was big in Sweden. If interest is so high, where are the teams? I don't particularly blame ETNZ for that, though the choice of boat didn't help. I blame LE.

Price... (if you could make a realistic challenge for 10m that would change a lot). In 2002 some budgets were in that ballpark.

 

[Left Shift]

have to say I think this is an expensive white elephant - the rules have locked teams into one primary route and I have serious doubts as to the suitability for match racing, let alone anything else.

Safety of a mono?  Not a snowballs in hell chance of that - or can they have a panic button that returns the foils to the full down position in just a few seconds. Without scrunching some poor organ grinder that's been flicked out of the boat in the process?  Things happen very fast in foiling boats.

Exciting though?  Of course, watching people spend OPM with gay abandon is always fun!   And fortunately there seem to be some that are happy to have it spent.  Maybe.

The proposed design has one apparently un-resolvable flaw that makes it a terrible choice for match-racing.  Or really any kind of racing.   

From what I hear, there is a point of serious lateral instability during the relatively slow (compared to the cats) transition from displacement to foiling.  And unless they rapidly find a way to keep the boats on foil through tacks and jibes, maneuvers will be painfully slow and potentially dangerous.   Just what I hear.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

The proposed design has one apparently un-resolvable flaw that makes it a terrible choice for match-racing.  Or really any kind of racing.   

From what I hear, there is a point of serious lateral instability during the relatively slow (compared to the cats) transition from displacement to foiling.  And unless they rapidly find a way to keep the boats on foil through tacks and jibes, maneuvers will be painfully slow and potentially dangerous.   Just what I hear.

Easy fix, they put 2 rudder foils, basically they transform the mono into a cat with a main hull instead of a tramp.

 

[Left Shift]

Easy fix, they put 2 rudder foils, basically they transform the mono into a cat with a main hull instead of a tramp.

Not so easy a fix I suspect as the lateral problem apparently occurs in the points of transition from displacement to foiling and then from foil to foil.  Not going to develop a lot of lateral stability from rudder foils.

Easier fix...use a catamaran to start with.  And apply all the lessons learned. 

Or go the TP52 route of fast, agile monos.  

The more I learn about these boats the more convinced I am that they are simply the bastard child of a couple of egos.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Not so easy a fix I suspect as the lateral problem apparently occurs in the points of transition from displacement to foiling and then from foil to foil.  Not going to develop a lot of lateral stability from rudder foils.

Easier fix...use a catamaran to start with.  And apply all the lessons learned. 

Or go the TP52 route of fast, agile monos.  

The more I learn about these boats the more convinced I am that they are simply the bastard child of a couple of egos.

Agreed that a cat would have been easier to start with. But they can try to transform the heavier platform into a cat IMO, IF the new foils are as efficient as L ones, which remains to be demonstrated.

Difficult to know what lead to this boat, a mono probably negotiated by P$B, then with the AC 50 event they had to get a fast boat.

We will soon know if we get a new generation of boats or a fluke.

 

[Guest]

Easy fix, they put 2 rudder foils, basically they transform the mono into a cat with a main hull instead of a tramp.

Foils, they are the answer to any question, how do I know this? Doug told me

 

[Varan]

FoiLs, they are the answer to any question, how do I know this? Doug told me

fify

 

[hoom]

From what I hear, there is a point of serious lateral instability during the relatively slow (compared to the cats) transition from displacement to foiling. 

So a very light, low beam monohull with a big rig & nearly no ballast has problems generating righting moment? Whodathunkit!

 

[Presuming Ed]

in other news, sun expected to rise in the east tomorrow.

Reports are coming in from the Vatican that the  Pontiff has a balcony.

 

[2Newts]

Not so easy a fix I suspect as the lateral problem apparently occurs in the points of transition from displacement to foiling and then from foil to foil.  Not going to develop a lot of lateral stability from rudder foils.

Easier fix...use a catamaran to start with.  And apply all the lessons learned. 

Or go the TP52 route of fast, agile monos.  

The more I learn about these boats the more convinced I am that they are simply the bastard child of a couple of egos.

Spot on. I'm upvoting AND adding a pointless comment JUST to amplify this point. 

(It's like yelling approval at a concert ... does your voice make any marginal difference? No, but it feels good.) 

 

[RobG]

The proposed design has one apparently un-resolvable flaw that makes it a terrible choice for match-racing.  Or really any kind of racing.   

From what I hear, there is a point of serious lateral instability during the relatively slow (compared to the cats) transition from displacement to foiling.  And unless they rapidly find a way to keep the boats on foil through tacks and jibes, manoeuvres will be painfully slow and potentially dangerous.   Just what I hear.

Given that rule 26 regarding downforce says the foils are not allowed to generate "net downforce", it means that when getting up to speed with both foils in the water, the windward foil can only get to net zero lift (and hence RM), then suddenly as it clears the water there's 1.5 tonnes of foil siting several metres off the windward gunwale. That's gotta mess with the lateral stability.

It can generate downforce while it's being raised, but that will call for some very calculated manoeuvres to preempt transitions, the speed of which will be governed by the speed of the rising foil to ensure the boat is setup to deal with the RM of the foil as it leaves the water.

It might be better if it was allowed to generate downforce equivalent to its weight (i.e. zero dynamic lift). That way it can be left in the water until things are sufficiently stable to lift it out. The situation goes in reverse when putting it into the water—suddenly the RM disappears.

I guess the rules can be changed to accommodate any issues once they're quantified and solutions become apparent.

 

[Fireball]

Given that rule 26 regarding downforce says the foils are not allowed to generate "net downforce", it means that when getting up to speed with both foils in the water, the windward foil can only get to net zero lift (and hence RM), then suddenly as it clears the water there's 1.5 tonnes of foil siting several metres off the windward gunwale. That's gotta mess with the lateral stability.

It can generate downforce while it's being raised, but that will call for some very calculated manoeuvres to preempt transitions, the speed of which will be governed by the speed of the rising foil to ensure the boat is setup to deal with the RM of the foil as it leaves the water.

It might be better if it was allowed to generate downforce equivalent to its weight (i.e. zero dynamic lift). That way it can be left in the water until things are sufficiently stable to lift it out. The situation goes in reverse when putting it into the water—suddenly the RM disappears.

I guess the rules can be changed to accommodate any issues once they're quantified and solutions become apparent.

The rules can be changed, but it could be controversial because the changes could suit some teams more than others. We've seen this before in AC34: trying to develop a new type of boat while running a regatta.

 

[FinnFish]

Right.

My guess is that the next AC will be an historical flop or success.

A flop if the boats are expensive, slow, and don't trickle dow

A sucess if the boat has the speed of a multi, the safety of a mono, and trickles dow.

We should know soon, pretty exciting.

WOW, such insight.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

WOW, such insight.

And if we get an hint thanks to the brits within 2 months ?