Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

[A Class Sailor]

OK, AC35 was big in Sweden. If interest is so high, where are the teams? I don't particularly blame ETNZ for that, though the choice of boat didn't help. I blame LE.

I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. If Oracle had won the Cup, there would have been a minimum of 8 entries with the potential for more. How?

5 from the London Agreement

1 x ETNZ (surely they would not have given up)

1 x Australia with Tom Slingsby who had funds for a campaign based on his option on a s/h AC50

1 x Alinghi (yes, i know, there was no certainty but Bertarelli said he would have entered if it had stayed in AC50's.)

Instead, we are looking at half that number. How can you blame Ellison for that?

 

[dogwatch]

Take the rose tinted glasses off and you don't get to 8.

Hell will freeze over before EB enters a Larry-regatta.

Cammas has lost his headline sponsor and so far not found another. There is no certainty at all he'd be in AC36 whatever the boat and whoever the defender.

If Oracle had won, I suspect Slingsby would still be on that team rather than cobbling together an under-funded AUS challenge.

 

[rh3000]

I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. If Oracle had won the Cup, there would have been a minimum of 8 entries with the potential for more. How?

5 from the London Agreement

1 x ETNZ (surely they would not have given up)

1 x Australia with Tom Slingsby who had funds for a campaign based on his option on a s/h AC50

1 x Alinghi (yes, i know, there was no certainty but Bertarelli said he would have entered if it had stayed in AC50's.)

Instead, we are looking at half that number. How can you blame Ellison for that?

Jesus fucking Christ who let this guy back in the pub...

 

[dachopper]

So a very light, low beam monohull with a big rig & nearly no ballast has problems generating righting moment? Whodathunkit!

There's the first design change, big rig not required

 

[dachopper]

When the windward foil leaves the water, the leeward foil must compensate for the loss of lift. So RM is not an issue, transferred from 2 to 1 foil., the boat may yaw a bit, but this would have happened on the ac50s when lowering and raising the boards, and didn't seem to be an issue.in the air, apart from lack of split rudders, they function the same.

 

[david r]

I wonder what the difference in RM is between weighted foil out to windward and weighted foil pointed down?  They will need them both down before going into a foiling gybe.  It will be interesting to see how stable the boat will be while they are swinging a keel-like appendage at speed.

 

[Left Shift]

When the windward foil leaves the water, the leeward foil must compensate for the loss of lift. So RM is not an issue, transferred from 2 to 1 foil., the boat may yaw a bit, but this would have happened on the ac50s when lowering and raising the boards, and didn't seem to be an issue.in the air, apart from lack of split rudders, they function the same.

Move back in time, when the boat is going slow and before the windward foil leaves the water, when the boat is not yet foiling and leaning on the leeward foil for stability.   How does the boat put power on and accelerate.  Is there a problem?  Are seconds and boat lengths ticking off the clock?

 

[rh3000]

Move back in time, when the boat is going slow and before the windward foil leaves the water, when the boat is not yet foiling and leaning on the leeward foil for stability.   How does the boat put power on and accelerate.  Is there a problem?  Are seconds and boat lengths ticking off the clock?

When down and in the water, the foils are *always* capable providing whatever lift is desired - even before "foiling (flight)" is achieved. So you'd just adjust the flap or AoA to provide lift (and thus RM) on the leeward foil. Granted there will be a stall rate for a foil that is not moving fast enough through the water, but what we are discussing is pretty just standard aerodynamics needed for various objects to fly.

 

[Left Shift]

When down and in the water, the foils are *always* capable providing whatever lift is desired - even before "foiling (flight)" is achieved. So you'd just adjust the flap or AoA to provide lift (and thus RM) on the leeward foil. Granted there will be a stall rate for a foil that is not moving fast enough through the water, but what we are discussing is pretty just standard aerodynamics needed for various objects to fly.

Sounds like a complicated bit of plot for an in-flight movie.  

I assume there is a reason you put *always* in asterisks.  Is there a minimum boat speed at which "always" provided lift?

 

[Guest]

22 pages on vapourware, fact is the sum total of actual knowledge of what these boats are going to sail like is precisely zero. We are all going to be blown away either because they are actually going to sail, or because they will be the world most expensive collection of 4ksb's

 

[RobG]

When the windward foil leaves the water, the leeward foil must compensate for the loss of lift. So RM is not an issue, transferred from 2 to 1 foil., the boat may yaw a bit, but this would have happened on the ac50s when lowering and raising the boards, and didn't seem to be an issue.in the air, apart from lack of split rudders, they function the same.

Totally different dynamic to the AC50. Their foils didn’t weigh anything like 1.5t and the dual rudders helped. In a stable sailing configuration they are similar, but transitions are much more complex, if only due to the very different two/three point configuration compared to the AC50 three/four point.

 

[rh3000]

Sounds like a complicated bit of plot for an in-flight movie.  

I assume there is a reason you put *always* in asterisks.  Is there a minimum boat speed at which "always" provided lift?

Nah I just meant to emphasise that lift is always available (assuming forward motion through the water and positive wing shape), even when not fully "flying". Speed and drag do not directly correlate to lift... a plane can take off at a slow speed, and then can achieve a much higher cruising speed whilst generating less lift. Again during landing, extended flaps generate more lift at a slower speed... of course there is a stall speed as well, but this relates to an attempt to generate more lift than the speed and profile can deliver...

 

[A Class Sailor]

Take the rose tinted glasses off and you don't get to 8.

Hell will freeze over before EB enters a Larry-regatta.

Cammas has lost his headline sponsor and so far not found another. There is no certainty at all he'd be in AC36 whatever the boat and whoever the defender.

If Oracle had won, I suspect Slingsby would still be on that team rather than cobbling together an under-funded AUS challenge.

You are well out of touch. Bertareli had dinner with Ellison to patch things over and had told his sailors that they would challenge is it was still in foiling cats. Cammas didn't lose his sponsor until after ETNZ won and the cup being held in NZ was a factor in that decision. There is also a big difference between the budget needed for this AC and what would have been needed for a continued campaign under the London agreement. With no need for another boat and a 2 year cycle, an existing team could have done it for under $50m while now you need over double that. As for Tom, again you are wrong. He had a signed agreement to buy the Oracle AC50 at a price that meant that $50m was a realistic budget. He had money committed well before the AC was raced. He was leaving Oracle win or lose, just like Ainslie did. It was an clear understanding after he got shafted when Spithill was brought back as skipper after Tom had been told the role was his. Without it, he would have walked. Oracle knew Tom was out and they did all they could to ensure he would be able to start his own team, just like they did with Ainslie.

Think about it another way. Even if you are right and Cammas was out, that leaves 5 teams. With Oracle building a new boat and the French boat being available, do you really think that they couldn't have found 2 teams to take those boats as the basis of a campaign? A used AC50 doesn't have much value unless you are doing a campaign so instead of, say, $10m+ for a boat you would be paying something like sub $1m. It saves more than  that, because you don't then need a home base to build the boat. A 2 year cycle cuts costs hugely. It's not hard to see the opportunity to do a campaign for sub $50m. That makes 7 teams which is significantly more than 4.

 

[rh3000]

EB having dinner with LE is like Kim having dinner with Trump - it's all amazing until it isn't which is just a case of when not if...

If you are looking for loyalty, consistency and commitment, you are barking up the wrong tree if you think you'll find it amongst these fickle ego-maniacs...

 

[A Class Sailor]

EB having dinner with LE is like Kim having dinner with Trump - it's all amazing until it isn't which is just a case of when not if...

If you are looking for loyalty, consistency and commitment, you are barking up the wrong tree if you think you'll find it amongst these fickle ego-maniacs...

Since when does a challenger have to like a defender. In this case, EB saw it as an opportunity to win the cup off Oracle, so it fits nicely with your idea of lack of loyalty, friendship etc. He certainly wouldn't have entered because Ellison was his new BFF.

 

[Terry Hollis]

You are well out of touch. Bertareli had dinner with Ellison to patch things over and had told his sailors that they would challenge is it was still in foiling cats. Cammas didn't lose his sponsor until after ETNZ won and the cup being held in NZ was a factor in that decision. There is also a big difference between the budget needed for this AC and what would have been needed for a continued campaign under the London agreement. With no need for another boat and a 2 year cycle, an existing team could have done it for under $50m while now you need over double that. As for Tom, again you are wrong. He had a signed agreement to buy the Oracle AC50 at a price that meant that $50m was a realistic budget. He had money committed well before the AC was raced. He was leaving Oracle win or lose, just like Ainslie did. It was an clear understanding after he got shafted when Spithill was brought back as skipper after Tom had been told the role was his. Without it, he would have walked. Oracle knew Tom was out and they did all they could to ensure he would be able to start his own team, just like they did with Ainslie.

Think about it another way. Even if you are right and Cammas was out, that leaves 5 teams. With Oracle building a new boat and the French boat being available, do you really think that they couldn't have found 2 teams to take those boats as the basis of a campaign? A used AC50 doesn't have much value unless you are doing a campaign so instead of, say, $10m+ for a boat you would be paying something like sub $1m. It saves more than  that, because you don't then need a home base to build the boat. A 2 year cycle cuts costs hugely. It's not hard to see the opportunity to do a campaign for sub $50m. That makes 7 teams which is significantly more than 4.

Assuming that ETNZ can raise the necessary funds to compete with their foiling mono, in what way is it an advantage to them to have more challengers than less?

 

[A Class Sailor]

Assuming that ETNZ can raise the necessary funds to compete with their foiling mono, in what way is it an advantage to them to have more challengers than less?

Dalton's ego. He is the one who is saying that there is no interest from competitors and that is Ellison's fault. He was the one who said he was going to make the cup popular and affordable again. He was the one who wanted more bases than there were competitors last time because he thought he could make the event attractive to competitors. The reality is that every defender in recent times has wanted to get as many challengers as possible to prove their vision is best.

If you believe that all ETNZ wants is an easy defence with no competition, then you are right, there is no advantage at all in more challengers. Are you saying that ETNZ is deliberately trying to put off quality challengers to make it easier for them to defend, because that would be a new low. I believe that ETNZ wants to attract as many challengers as possible. The trouble is that their vision isn't as appealing as they hoped it was going to be.

 

[dogwatch]

. Bertareli had dinner with Ellison to patch things over and had told his sailors that they would challenge is it was still in foiling cats.

Yet Alinghi does not appear to be on the entry list for the F50s. I will believe they have kissed and made up if and when that happens.

 

[Terry Hollis]

Dalton's ego. He is the one who is saying that there is no interest from competitors and that is Ellison's fault. He was the one who said he was going to make the cup popular and affordable again. He was the one who wanted more bases than there were competitors last time because he thought he could make the event attractive to competitors. The reality is that every defender in recent times has wanted to get as many challengers as possible to prove their vision is best.

If you believe that all ETNZ wants is an easy defence with no competition, then you are right, there is no advantage at all in more challengers. Are you saying that ETNZ is deliberately trying to put off quality challengers to make it easier for them to defend, because that would be a new low. I believe that ETNZ wants to attract as many challengers as possible. The trouble is that their vision isn't as appealing as they hoped it was going to be.

I am not saying anything, it was just a question.  As for Dalton I really believe that he is trying do do the best he can with his limited resources for the America's Cup, his ego has nothing to do with it.

The America's Cup is more than ever a technology race and Dalton wants to keep that development going because his team are the current champions in that area.  If he kept the cats it would almost become a one design contest so he would lose his advantage.

The fact that a traditional style of America's cup is relatively expensive and discourages some entrants is an unfortunate casualty but that is a minor consideration compared to the tradition of the America's Cup which only had one challenger at a time for about 100 years.  

 

[dachopper]

Move back in time, when the boat is going slow and before the windward foil leaves the water, when the boat is not yet foiling and leaning on the leeward foil for stability.   How does the boat put power on and accelerate.  Is there a problem?  Are seconds and boat lengths ticking off the clock?

I think their aim would be to foil for 100 % of the race.... however, even at sub foiling speeds, the foils generate a lot of lift, negative lift on the upwind foil would help in this scenario.