Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

[Left Shift]

I think their aim would be to foil for 100 % of the race.... however, even at sub foiling speeds, the foils generate a lot of lift, negative lift on the upwind foil would help in this scenario.

It took full time work for years and dozens of iterations of foil designs, foil management, crewing and sail management techniques and power management before they got the AC50s to foil all the way around a race course, and that was with a much lighter, more maneuverable platform.  I understand Oracle had a team of dozens of people who were daily working on the incremental pieces that got to consistent foiling.  

Now ETNZ are asking teams to try to reinvent that process on a larger, heavier,more expensive platform with a theoretical foil design that has never been raced before.

Good luck with that.  I would guess that wallets are slamming shut all over, with a wait and see attitude before a few of them open up for next time.   

My 2 cents.

 

[rh3000]

It took full time work for years and dozens of iterations of foil designs, foil management, crewing and sail management techniques and power management before they got the AC50s to foil all the way around a race course, and that was with a much lighter, more maneuverable platform.  I understand Oracle had a team of dozens of people who were daily working on the incremental pieces that got to consistent foiling.  

Now ETNZ are asking teams to try to reinvent that process on a larger, heavier,more expensive platform with a theoretical foil design that has never been raced before.

Good luck with that.  I would guess that wallets are slamming shut all over, with a wait and see attitude before a few of them open up for next time.   

My 2 cents.

ETNZ managed to take a 72 foot cat *designed not to foil* and turned the class into a foiling class that others achieved as well in that AC - one cycle later we had all manner of teams foiling in the AC50.

I'd have more faith in ETNZ and others, to be able to continue this pattern, with a boat class designed to foil.

 

[Kiwing]

I believe that the sail(s) will not have enough power or control to foil all the time. Of course this will depend on lowest racing wind speed and any time limit for length of races.

The team who will win will work out the best compromises, lower lift-off verse better VMG and best non-foiling config.

I hope there will be some out of left field solutions too.

 

[Kiwing]

I also believe ETNZ/COR have specified a boat that will foil 50% to 75% (depending on wind speed) of the time and hence there will be some more traditional non-foiling match racing.

AND I believe they will be more successful than Oracle in achieving a set of boats they conform to their wish.

Hence I believe the lowest speed lift-off might be a telling factor.  There will be races with very little foiling?

 

[A Class Sailor]

Yet Alinghi does not appear to be on the entry list for the F50s. I will believe they have kissed and made up if and when that happens.

Correct. It's one thing to challenge for the AC to give Ellison a bloody nose, but it's another to support the Ellison/Coutts show. Alinghi was on the initial list of teams for the F50 but dropped out due to disagreements over how the series was being organised, particularly over the ownership vs leasing model for the boats.

ETNZ managed to take a 72 foot cat *designed not to foil* and turned the class into a foiling class

That is incorrect. Morrelli and Melvin, who wrote the rule have clearly stated that the rule was written in such a way as not to rule out foiling. Pete Melvin stated in an interview "when we wrote the rule we weren't sure if we could fully foil" but it was their focus  attention when they joined the ETNZ design team.

 

[hoom]

I also believe ETNZ/COR have specified a boat that will foil 50% to 75% (depending on wind speed) of the time and hence there will be some more traditional non-foiling match racing.

When not foiling they're likely to be pretty stuck in the water & running odd angles trying to find a puff/build apparent.

See the really light days in Bermuda, the one where TNZ nearly won the AC in SF & most Superfoiler races for comparison.

 

[Kiwing]

@hoom do you think these twin sail rig will be powerful enough?

All the races you mention are over powered wings with quite good control.

I think we are dealing with a different beast?

But I get your point that in the very low wind ranges they had the same problem but for a much smaller % of time.

Most of their problems were related to jumping from the front of this gist to the back of the one ahead.

 

[hoom]

Certainly less powerful than a same size proper wing, not sure if significantly more powerful than a same size conventional sail since many people have tried & failed with double-sided.

My concern has always been in the question of if the platform can provide the righting moment to translate the rig power into drive.

The other boats mentioned definitely had the righting moment & very powerful rigs but still had to go chasing apparent in the light preferentially over any matchracing consideration.

Edit: I should recall our GrouchoMarx who has built & sailed many foil stabilised 'monos' hasn't had much issue with low-speed righting moment.

On the other hand I think he has relatively bigger beam than the JC75.

 

[RobG]

ETNZ managed to take a 72 foot cat *designed not to foil* and turned the class into a foiling class…

The class was designed not to foil in the same way the A Class are still designed not to foil but do anyway. The ETNZ AC72 was designed to foil right from the start.

The first attempts at foiling were rudimentary at best, it was a marvel that the boats managed to sustain full foiling at all. Over the 6 years of development or so (and interim change to AC50s and rule changes), things changed so much that even the leeway coupling effect that was fundamental to early altitude control was largely replaced by adjusting the entire foil in ways that weren't possible with in the AC72s.

 

[dachopper]

It took full time work for years and dozens of iterations of foil designs, foil management, crewing and sail management techniques and power management before they got the AC50s to foil all the way around a race course, and that was with a much lighter, more maneuverable platform.  I understand Oracle had a team of dozens of people who were daily working on the incremental pieces that got to consistent foiling.  

Now ETNZ are asking teams to try to reinvent that process on a larger, heavier,more expensive platform with a theoretical foil design that has never been raced before.

Good luck with that.  I would guess that wallets are slamming shut all over, with a wait and see attitude before a few of them open up for next time.   

My 2 cents.

A foiling boat is a foiling boat.

Slap some foils on it, move forwards and a fridge door will get you airborne, how stable it is can be overcome with auto stability systems, or it can be designed to be stable from the beginning with less performance. They have been making these things for decades.

They are using T foils, which have been used and developed extensively ... maybe even exhaustibly over the last 10 years with kitefoiling, moths, windsurfing and even some of the big Tri's. The technology is already there - the biggest improvements in the kite racing scene over that period was the kites, not the foils. I think that's where the most of the progress is to be made, if you can generate the same lift, a couple degrees forward, you need less ballast, smaller sails, have easier control systems and go faster.

It's at the point now where if you used say the best inflatable race kite on the market, and picked any foil race kite,  you could use any race foil from any manufacturer on the foil,  and still cream the inflatable race kite. Utterly non competitive, yet the foils are all different - but they don't make as much of a difference as the sail

Not really a question of if they will make it - yeah to an extent, the more iterations you have, statistically you will arrive at a better platform due to more options, but just like TNZ and the bikes, doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that riding = more power than rowing. Yet all the inside the box thinking teams dismissed it. 

They need to think outside the box with the pilot also. it's not the same as sailing any more, they need to stay on the foils at all cost even if that means pointing in the opposite direction - an 1800's era steering wheel is not going to be the best solution for that!

 

[dogwatch]

That's an interesting post but I'm not altogether convinced. Development in foils did make a major difference in AC34-35. I'm not sure development is slowing down that much.

I know next to nothing about kitefoiling kites but I know something about paragliding wings, which are also kites, and development is still rapid even though it has been going on for decades. The same cannot be said about sail performance, gains there are now incremental in the extreme.

 

[Kiwing]

my 2 cents,

I think the simulators are really good and ETNZ have set it up so that given average wind speeds, 20% of the time there will be no foiling mostly, 60% there will be foiling approx 50% of the time and 20% of the time there will be mostly foiling racing and that is what we are in for IMHO.

 

[dogwatch]

I agree to the extent that I think those who argue that we won't see worthwhile racing in these boats are in for a surprise.

 

[Kiwing]

Like the last leg of the VOR when some boats on the east most course seemed far behind only to win!

 

[dachopper]

That's an interesting post but I'm not altogether convinced. Development in foils did make a major difference in AC34-35. I'm not sure development is slowing down that much.

I know next to nothing about kitefoiling kites but I know something about paragliding wings, which are also kites, and development is still rapid even though it has been going on for decades. The same cannot be said about sail performance develpoment, gains there are now incremental in the extreme.

But what difference has the foil dev made compared with sail dev.

Look at the first series with hard and soft wings. Soft wings slaughtered.

 

[dogwatch]

Sure but not really relevant for AC36 as the sail will be a soft sail.

 

[Left Shift]

my 2 cents,

I think the simulators are really good and ETNZ have set it up so that given average wind speeds, 20% of the time there will be no foiling mostly, 60% there will be foiling approx 50% of the time and 20% of the time there will be mostly foiling racing and that is what we are in for IMHO.

So, will there be flags on the umpire boat, like a caution flag at NASCAR, Red = No foiling, Yellow = Port tack foiling only, Green = Foil or die? 

Any race that has part time foiling will be like watching a yo-yo contest, or the Superfoiler series.  Which was primarily good for odd ball proposition bets, but not for fair boat racing.  Fully foiling cats on the other hand were pretty fantastic to watch boat on boat.  

However, opinions are dime a dozen, so its "wait and see" as our only option at this point.

 

[Kiwing]

Superfoilers were about being to jump from your present gust to the gust in front, a real skill and quite different to lead mines.  It really stretched the imagination of what was possible.  These boats are trying to bridge the gap between lead mines and AC50s, in the world of VOR etc but really pushing a corner of the envelope.  The AC72, Kites and Moths made everyone believe you could foil many things so foils have sprung up all over the place.  These weird things will precipitate something, I don't know what.  There will be some very interesting manoeuvres to try to get foiling which might waste more time than they are worth who knows?  Over all, sailing will benefit I think (more than just having another foiling cat ragatta.!)

 

[Left Shift]

Superfoilers were about being to jump from your present gust to the gust in front, a real skill and quite different to lead mines.  It really stretched the imagination of what was possible.  These boats are trying to bridge the gap between lead mines and AC50s, in the world of VOR etc but really pushing a corner of the envelope.  The AC72, Kites and Moths made everyone believe you could foil many things so foils have sprung up all over the place.  These weird things will precipitate something, I don't know what.  There will be some very interesting manoeuvres to try to get foiling which might waste more time than they are worth who knows?  Over all, sailing will benefit I think (more than just having another foiling cat ragatta.!)

Superfoilers became that when it became clear that they failed in their design brief to be high-speed, manouverable one-design raceboats.  The new boats are a desperation dart thrown by a couple of conflicted egos who reminisce about monos but concede that speed is necessary to get eyeballs.

 

[Forourselves]

Superfoilers became that when it became clear that they failed in their design brief to be high-speed, manouverable one-design raceboats.  The new boats are a desperation dart thrown by a couple of conflicted egos who reminisce about monos but concede that speed is necessary to get eyeballs.

Egos have nothing to do with it.