Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

GauchoGreg

Super Anarchist
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161
Nothing says tradition like foiling monohulls  I'm sure all the 10ksb sailors can totally relate to these:

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Groucho Marx

Anarchist
842
217
auckland, nz
Just remember you monohull  jeans creamers that the Open 60s are absolute dogs to windward. And you monohullers in the past have always wanked on about pointing high to windward. Hypocrisy much?  Also their pendulum keels are extreme in terms of depth - so not great for onshore viewers (or the crew scraping bottom off East Coast bays) ... and they need a fucking stinker to swing them. Get real.

It appears that the asylum has been taken over by inmates. No, that is insulting to the inmates. We have another form of bonkers arch conservatism appearing here?

 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,333
1,290
South Coast, UK
For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats? 
Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.

 

GauchoGreg

Super Anarchist
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161
Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.
That's not really the point I was making, though, right?  My point is that what we are likely to see in a "foiling" mono is going to be no more similar, fundamentally, to what the regular mono guy sails than the foiling cats.  Both will be apparent wind monsters, HUGE effective beam, foiling, crazy systems, and the sailing itself will not be much at all like what most people do at their local yacht club, beach, or lake/river.  How many people actually do this kind of racing, match racing in such fast, complex machines (even scaled down).  Effectively, what these monos will be is a multi-hull dragging a keel.... So one has to ask "why?".  Tradition is the only answer that comes back.  Not to save money, not to be like what people sail in regular life, not to make the racing closer, not to get more teams involved.  Purely, it will be about some people's concept of tradition.  But that is laughable when the boats have half a dozen or more appendages to try and re-create multi-hull physics.

 
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dogwatch

Super Anarchist
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South Coast, UK
GG, you like cats, others like monohulls. I don't know why you have to attach the label "tradition" to the latter. There's nothing new about cats. Nothing at all. The multihull boom was decades ago.

 
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GauchoGreg

Super Anarchist
5,169
161
GG, you like cats, others like monohulls. I don't know why you have to attach the label "tradition" to the latter. There's nothing new about cats. Nothing at all. The multihull boom was decades ago.
Seriously?  I am hardly the one who started using the term traditional .... that, or some other obvious synonym, has been the reasoning they are going away from the multi-hulls, including the puppet-master, 'er, CoR.

I am not so hard against monohulls, and in fact would prefer a wide open monohull to a OD multi-hull, but I'm not a fan of some silly idea of going back to what people can relate to with a "monohull" when all of the physics are basically attempting to relate a mono to a multi.  I also think the idea of a foiling mono is pretty absurd for this event, it is just never going to be as good as a multi, but with the drawbacks of a multi (or worse)... probably would have been better if they had just gone with a wide open monohull rule with max two apendages (including rudder), and make them go archimedean or planing, rather than trying to foil.

 

Curious2

Member
391
19
For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats?  Either that, or we end up with boring as shit boats and crap racing where maneuvers are so heavily punished that the races end up being nothing more than drag races... but hey, they will be "sailors" on them.

It just seems as though the people making the decisions have lost their connection to what is important in exchange for some warped concept that they are going back to a more traditional boat/event.
Yep. Multi sailors are a small minority of sailors, but foiling sailors are a much smaller minority and despite the hype, the numbers are not growing very fast. The two biggest centres of foiling racers are reporting little or no recent growth. A radical foiling mono could well be the worst of most worlds; slower than the cats, harder to tack, and yet not something the typical sailor can relate to.

 
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Team_GBR

Super Anarchist
1,025
29
The Medal Race
Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.
I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

 

Curious2

Member
391
19
Aren't you comparing UK interest and coverage in an AC that had a UK entry to the interest and coverage in earlier ACs that had no such entry?

There were almost three decades with no UK entry in the AC. It's hardly surprising that interest increased when the UK got back into the event. Almost every similar event gets more general public interest when there's a much-hyped national representative. As an example, the general UK interest in the Tour de France has jumped since the arrival of Sky while US interest in the Tour de France has collapsed, but that's not due to any changes in the bikes - it's because now the Brits seem to have a chance of winning and the Americans don't.

Were you travelling in the same places and in the same way during the White Crusader challenge? If not, you just don't have a comparison that's remotely similar.
 

 
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jonas a

Super Anarchist
Regarding canting keels. Eg the one on the melges40 has an electric motor, so you don't have to have a Diesel engine running all day. Apparently quite quick too? Foils are a question mark. No good course racing foiling mono hulls, apart from the moth, out there yet. Anyhow, I don't  think the boat will be anything like the minimaxis and tp52's. Too many good teams out there already.

 
A

Amati

Guest
Seems like the money guys like big crews  :wacko:  as part of the rush, I suppose, so if you want tradition, why not a takeoff from log canoes- plaything of the rich, lots of sail area, preppies galore, no real advances in how many decades, those planks are awesome to look at, the handling demands are enormous, they capsize a lot.  Make 'em self righting somehow, get rid of wind limits, 30'-40' length, all the sail you can pile on in an air draft rule, box rule blah blah blah kind of like the New Zealand multihull rule, except 2 masts, make em as light as possible, that sort of thing.  No stored power, tackle only.  No keels.  Be kinda cool, but I think this crowd doesn't have the stones for it-

in other words go for insanely difficult boats

 
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~Stingray~~

Super Anarchist
22,861
28
I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 
Agreed. 

If the TV's in the bar are showing some boats crawling slowly upwind, the channels will get changed to something else, anything else, that is less painfully boring - in a minute at most.

Foiling mono's can't sail upwind without very serious canting keels - which I doubt they will even have because of the engine requirements and the time it takes to swing them even when powered. Lead <> speed upwind.

 
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Go Left

Super Anarchist
4,602
223
Seattle
Question: What do you think? Which was more important? The Boat or the new Stadium Sailing? What brought AC 34 and to lesser extend AC 35 to life was the innovative Stadium Racing. Certainly during AC 34 the boats were presented to the entire San Francisco waterfront and people could come watching it for free. That had never been in Cup History before, add the Live Line Graphics for people watching on TV you had a pretty good package to sell. OTUSA/ACEA/ACRM should have stuck with Frisco as host City. Going to Bermuda was bad.
The SF Cup was amazing, as was the earlier event with the ACC monohulls, although not quite as amazing.

Sitting in the stands when the AC 70's rounded the first mark and came right at us, foiling and getting bigger FAST, the whole crowd, maybe 10,000 people in those ticketed bleachers and lots more just on the shoreline, simultaneously said "Holy Shit!!!"   First and last time I've heard that from a sailing spectator crowd.  I've said it plenty of times during a leeward broach, but meant something else.

So.....Stadium sailing with fast, close boats.  With predictable winds.  Doesn't even have to be a lot of wind anymore.  You could maybe improve Bermuda with bleacher barges, but walking around the Marina Green meeting lots of people was just plain fun.

 
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~Stingray~~

Super Anarchist
22,861
28
The SF Cup was amazing, as was the earlier event with the ACC monohulls, although not quite as amazing.

Sitting in the stands when the AC 70's rounded the first mark and came right at us, foiling and getting bigger FAST, the whole crowd, maybe 10,000 people in those ticketed bleachers and lots more just on the shoreline, simultaneously said "Holy Shit!!!"   First and last time I've heard that from a sailing spectator crowd.  I've said it plenty of times during a leeward broach, but meant something else.

So.....Stadium sailing with fast, close boats.  With predictable winds.  Doesn't even have to be a lot of wind anymore.  You could maybe improve Bermuda with bleacher barges, but walking around the Marina Green meeting lots of people was just plain fun.
I suspect that even if ETNZ had run the table 9-0 then those AC72's on SF Bay would have still been my favorite AC of all time. The venue and those boats and the teams were a combination almost impossible to top. 

 
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A

Amati

Guest
Log canoes just LOOK like America's Cup boats, and even as Paleolithic as they are, kind of fast.

and they capsize a lot!  Did I mention that.  

Really lucious boat porn- everybody gets how insane hiking planks are couple with huge amounts of sail just think of these babies done in unobtainium!  And with bleeding edge naval architecture.

Of course the link died- I'll try again

there

IMG_0323.JPG

 
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