"Free Boats" and Sailing Aging Out
- Thread starter BrianMif
- Start date
Roller Skates
Super Anarchist
Our local CSC has tripled in usership since 2014. Club owned boats are the future.
Our yacht club promotes partnerships, but when it comes down to it there's less waste and more use in an intentional community of owners in a club owned fleet. For those that want to upgrade to their own, they can. But lowering that barrier is key.
Also can we just admit that our old boats can go in the trash? Part it, recycle the metal & fittings, and drop it off at the skip. I'm cutting up a J22 tomorrow. It was bad when we got it and missing 40-60% of its balsa core. Don't waste people's energy on "saving" the unsavable, just get them in the right boat. Not every boat can or should be saved. We need to be better about disposing boats and keeping the market full of boats that are actually sailable.
Nick Hayes' 2009 book "Saving Sailing" is a easily read compendium of what's "gone wrong" with sailing. Anyone with 1/10th an eyeball's worth of interest in sailing will go , "yup, uh huh, been there, seen it, 101% on point," while reading it. IIRC, Nick is a market researcher by profession and applied his talents to our sport. I highly recommend the book.
For me, we are at an inland sailing (exclusively sailboats, nothing else) club with onshore storage (dinghys and one design keel boats), a mooring field accessed by small motorized launches and rowing dinghys, and finger piers awarded by seniority. We don't lack for folks looking to join.
Our issues are:
1. People just looking for an inexpensive place to keep (dump) a boat. We try to filter them out at the front and don't offer them membership.
2. We have a lot of passing along of "shit boats." These OK condition to derelict boats get passed along to new members as first boats and said new member are often first time boat owners with little to no sailing experience (sometimes an ASA101 or US Sailing Basic Keelboat under their belts).
3. RE #2 They have no knowledge on maintaining boats and how much time and attention even a small boat stored outdoors requires. These become filthy, poorly maintained, wasp infested eyesores after the new wears off. This causes irritation with the folks who DO take care of their boats.
4. Transmitting our club culture. We were founded by a group of folks who "liked sailing better than playing golf" in the early 1960s as a place to RACE sailboats. We were founded as a racing club. Our racing culture is withering away. See #5 below.
5. A major preoccupation of a small portion of the club membership is drinking and all the misbehavior and mayhem that engenders. We aren't spoil sports and enjoy a cold beer after a day on the water, but safety and liability issues cannot be ignored in today's litigious world.
6. We have a 30 year history of youth sailing which focuses somewhat on competition (Opti's, Lasers, RS 2 person boats), but it's hard for youngsters to just get out and mess around in boats.
7. We don't do a good job with ADULT sailing education. We get frequent requests for "sailing lessons" but don't have anything to offer other than random invitations to come out and sail or to crew during races. There is an ASA program in our region, but nothing is offered on a more casual basis.
8. We are an all volunteer club and the 80% of the work is done by 20% of people rule holds. We are struggling with getting members to participate at any level. Working together builds community, but getting folks to make that first step is hard.
9. We do have a couple of club owned community boats - 2x Catalina 22s. I'm not sure this is the best platform to engage new sailors. Keeping them 100% working and sailable is a challenge.
10. Our inland weather isn't too conducive to regular sailing. It's hard to learn to sail without wind. In our region the rubric of wind + day off/weekend + warm weather = rare
For me, we are at an inland sailing (exclusively sailboats, nothing else) club with onshore storage (dinghys and one design keel boats), a mooring field accessed by small motorized launches and rowing dinghys, and finger piers awarded by seniority. We don't lack for folks looking to join.
Our issues are:
1. People just looking for an inexpensive place to keep (dump) a boat. We try to filter them out at the front and don't offer them membership.
2. We have a lot of passing along of "shit boats." These OK condition to derelict boats get passed along to new members as first boats and said new member are often first time boat owners with little to no sailing experience (sometimes an ASA101 or US Sailing Basic Keelboat under their belts).
3. RE #2 They have no knowledge on maintaining boats and how much time and attention even a small boat stored outdoors requires. These become filthy, poorly maintained, wasp infested eyesores after the new wears off. This causes irritation with the folks who DO take care of their boats.
4. Transmitting our club culture. We were founded by a group of folks who "liked sailing better than playing golf" in the early 1960s as a place to RACE sailboats. We were founded as a racing club. Our racing culture is withering away. See #5 below.
5. A major preoccupation of a small portion of the club membership is drinking and all the misbehavior and mayhem that engenders. We aren't spoil sports and enjoy a cold beer after a day on the water, but safety and liability issues cannot be ignored in today's litigious world.
6. We have a 30 year history of youth sailing which focuses somewhat on competition (Opti's, Lasers, RS 2 person boats), but it's hard for youngsters to just get out and mess around in boats.
7. We don't do a good job with ADULT sailing education. We get frequent requests for "sailing lessons" but don't have anything to offer other than random invitations to come out and sail or to crew during races. There is an ASA program in our region, but nothing is offered on a more casual basis.
8. We are an all volunteer club and the 80% of the work is done by 20% of people rule holds. We are struggling with getting members to participate at any level. Working together builds community, but getting folks to make that first step is hard.
9. We do have a couple of club owned community boats - 2x Catalina 22s. I'm not sure this is the best platform to engage new sailors. Keeping them 100% working and sailable is a challenge.
10. Our inland weather isn't too conducive to regular sailing. It's hard to learn to sail without wind. In our region the rubric of wind + day off/weekend + warm weather = rare
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Low,
Our ski club/lodge has work party days, several during the off season to choose from. If you don't attend one you are assessed a fee, $200 this year. Nearly all attend AFAIK. Its fun, low key and gets members to know each other. On a few occasions the elected president has allowed a member to complete a task instead. Its usually a unique and important task that the member may have special skills in. We do have hefty quarterly dues that pays for all skilled upkeep needs; roof, painting, appliances. I recently learned that the late Larry Christiansen, who owned the fasted sailboat on Puget Sound in the 60's, was a charter member of our club.
Our ski club/lodge has work party days, several during the off season to choose from. If you don't attend one you are assessed a fee, $200 this year. Nearly all attend AFAIK. Its fun, low key and gets members to know each other. On a few occasions the elected president has allowed a member to complete a task instead. Its usually a unique and important task that the member may have special skills in. We do have hefty quarterly dues that pays for all skilled upkeep needs; roof, painting, appliances. I recently learned that the late Larry Christiansen, who owned the fasted sailboat on Puget Sound in the 60's, was a charter member of our club.
TradingUp
Anarchist
- 535
- 91
You pretty much described the situation at the club I belong to. To a “t”.
In dealing on the marina service committee; I had found a few cheaper solutions to the infrastructure woes. The old guard shot them down, while increasing fees.
Like bubblers. So you don’t have to re-drive pilings every year, on account of the tides and freeze up.
The alternatives are a longer drive away with waiting lists. The club can afford to cater to the zombie fleet, since the alternatives are full.
dlymn
New member
Sold the 38 footer five years ago. This year, bought a I420 dinghy (cheapest fun on water). Storage in a shed $400 pa. Now about to buy a 7 metre 50 yo coastal cruiser to get on the water during our winter escape os. 75 yo raging against the dying light.
Hi there, I think that all the issues you have identified are compounded by a change in culture. In my thirties, it appeared that my wife and kids were happy for me to spend the Saturday sailing, plus twilights. Now in my mid sixties, most of the crew are late 50’s or in their 60’s. I truly believe that if the bodies that purported represent us don’t get more people into sailing, it will be a slow drawn out death for sailing. I sail for my head not my wallet and i am lucky I can afford it. In Sydney ( AUS) now all fleets are getting smaller. I also feel that through the COVID times, people just bought boats because they couldn’t travel or whatever. Not sailors but people with boats who don’t race and when they realise that there is a fair bit of maintenance etc, just sell.
when should I sell my boat?
when should I sell my boat?
pickeringsv
Member
there is too much organized training at the children level focused on racing to win competitions and not enough mucking about in boats and learning how to enjoy boating as a recreation - those that don’t win give up and we rarely see them cross over into recreational boating
basbass
New member
In the California Delta sailing is almost impossible because of the water hyacinth and sweetwater weed growing everywhere, getting into your keel, rudder and prop, making sailing NO fun activity. High slip prices combined with ancient, dysfunctional infrastructure and heavy demands on boats from insurance clubs make it quite different from when I started in the 80's, paying plm $100/yr for a slip. That was affordable, I still lived with my parents, and there was adventure on the water instead of fishermen on $100K bass-boats spilling their lines in my propellor, breaking the seals.
I've been offered a free 43' wooden sailboat with "some work" (again!), but I'm aware of a bad market (esp insurance!). ps. plenty slips in the Delta...
I've been offered a free 43' wooden sailboat with "some work" (again!), but I'm aware of a bad market (esp insurance!). ps. plenty slips in the Delta...
Santanasailor
Charter Member. Scow Mafia
I haven't either. This is what helps keep me sailing.
However, at least in the local states I cycle in, participation in Senior Olympic Cycling seems to be down. And, I must admit, after years of competing, I am a bit burned out myself. Still riding because I need to to remain healthy, but skipped two races already this season. Guess, I'll give the fall races a go. My TT bike sits patiently waiting, and seemingly saying, take me, take me.
Yes, lots of cyclists, but even cycling is not the same as it was ten years ago. Group rides are down, USAC races in our area are down. While covid sent sales through the roof at cycling shops, I don't see the cyclists out on the roads or in the parks or anywhere.
So, not long from now,expecting a huge bonus in my parts and raw material department. (diving in dumpsters for throw-away bikes I can rebuild for youngsters).
MattFranzek
Member
I’m WAITING for the bike and boat market to collapse. I love my Cervelo gravel bike, but it’s just not a ultralight aero super bike.
This thread is a perfect example of what’s wrong. We have multiple younger sailors commenting on how to grow sailing and the issues they see, and a bunch of old guys whose generation is the reason sailing is in the spot it’s in telling them they are wrong. Over coaching, exponentially raising costs, distractions from 847293 other activities available to todays youth are the issues, and to combat that we need to get greed out of waterfront development, get the fun back in sailing, and get kids boats that are interesting. Sorry Boomers, you won’t be around for ever and no one (maybe 1%) under the age of 50 wants to crew on your C&C 35 MK2, sorry, that’s just how it is. Don’t blame kids, look in the mirror for not joining 2023. I love a a good hard windward lewards, but toss in a good fast reach once in a while, nothing beats fully hiking working a boat to keep it upright and going fast, surfing away, did you guys forget that, wait C&C 35 MK2s just broach so we got rid of those.
Sailing coaches are super cool, I learned TON from Danny Pletsch and Blaine Peblow in college, more than I could have from my parents (who taught me to sail), about working a boat. But there is a time for coaching and a time for having fun. Sometimes a coach just needs to let the kids go goof off. I saw this at ABYC 3 weeks ago, the coaches put the kids in Optis and Parms, and just supervised the kids having fun. We need more of this. No 8/9/10 year old wants to do video review of practice, hell college kids at the top programs don’t usually want to video review of tacks, gybes, mark roundings, and starts. We need to remember there is a time and place for this stuff. I help out with the local high school program at the Buffalo Yacht Club, we often will intrude a new skill/technique with a quick 5-10 minute video lesson before practice, never after practice. Time and place.
The cost of owning a boat is astronomical. Boat prices are up 30% plus since 2018, fuck covid, clubs are more expensive, sails, lines, parts all are more expensive. A lot of modern fleets shouldn’t even show up if you want to be competitive with out a Sailmon or Vakaros, $1000. Want to be competitive, new sails every year, new jib at bare minimum, $2500+. I was talking to a friend that is close to an Olympic hopeful team, their budget is $250,000 a year, are you fricking kidding me? What did it cost in the 60/70/80s to campaign a FD or Finn or Star? Speaking of costs, we keep “trying to keep costs down” when repairing infrastructure at our clubs, yet do this half ass fixes and wait for the next generation to take care of it. How many clubs have dock, break wall, infrastructure issues that keep coming up again and again because it costs too much. Sorry but doing a quick fix that looks good for the books is WAY more expensive then the right fix once. I’m not even going to go into real estate costs on the waterfront.
The issue you ask, is the boomers, the know it all generation that tells everyone else how it should be without listening to anyone younger than them. You got an AWESOME sailing scene, you were born into it, and the legacy that’s being left behind is, well, shit. Take time at the club to listen to the kids, the coaches, the 20, 30, and 40 year olds. Watch their body language, ask what’s up and what they like/don’t like about sailing. Ask what cool boats they see around or coming up or on social media. I know I’ll NEVER make headway on this here but maybe ask the kids what they want to do and create the environment where they know “nothing” is not an acceptable answer and are ok with that.
Kids had to spend a lot of time in front of screens the past 3 years, they don’t want to any more. Ask them! Yeah it’s nice to sit down at the end of a long day and shoot zombies with your buddies, I’m 38 years old and I still like doing it, but not more them going sailing. We had this talk with our junior sailing kids one cold day and they all said they liked being outside and taking a break from screens.
Lastly, make the top of the sport exciting for kids to watch again. Make Maxi regattas cool, make the 52 series, SailGP, AC40s, and the Olympics fun to watch. But also find ways to make Lightnings, Thistles, 49ers, and VXOnes watchable. Not everyone wants to foil, we has this talk, but some do, some want to race skiffs, some are just happy on a Lightning. I’ve had multiple kids ask why team racing and Moths aren’t in the Olympics, and why the Laser and 470 are still Olympic classes. We don’t need sailing to become reality TV, but we need to fight for clicks and views with things that interest kids, then the yacht clubs will be full again. And Lasers/470s/50+ year old boats aren’t it.
Edit 1: Scott, the C&C is not a shot at you. Just picked a random old boat.
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There is a big difference from getting out on the water in a 5ktsb vs. a more modern race boat with budget for new sails every year. Race programs have always been sponsored by wealthier folks. Sails and the latest tech has always been expensive. Race on the rich guys boats and day-sail/cruise on a 5ktsb.
I think you're a bit out of touch if you're complaining about not being able to buy new sails every year to be a competitive race program. Let's start with getting people into 5ktsb's they can DIY maintenance on and find a home for without breaking the bank.
Meat Wad
Super Anarchist
Are they buying boats or crewing on boats?
Everyone loves riding on big boats staying relatively dry. Riding on boats with low freeboard (smaller boats) is not as fun, especially in cold water areas.
I thought this thread was about owning boats?
kinardly
Super Anarchist
Yours the Hobie?
MattFranzek
Member
In the 60/70/80s when sailing was booming, how much was a jib from your local loft? You had guys and girls owning local lofts with sewing machines making their own sails. You had how many local boat builders making Santa Cruz, C&C, J Boat, Express, ODay, etc? You are right, the top guys could always afford the best stuff, but you could show up to a local/regional event with good sails that didn’t cost an arm and a leg. You could show up with sails from Hood, or North, which were little local lofts back then, and be competitive. Good luck with that now, you’ll get shot out the back cause you can’t hold a lane.
Also, everything back then was a 5kt shit box and 1/2 of the boats out racing today are still the same 5kt shit boxes. Yeah the fast fleets are modern race boats, but look at the bulk of the boats entered, 5kt shit boxes. How many J35s are still racing in Annapolis, SoCal, SF, Newport, etc? More than a handful, and sorry but they are 5kt shit boxes.
You could take a kid as an extra body on a J35, C&C 35, a Person Flyer, because the boats were the cool it boats, and the kids were amazed! Now, it’s hard to bribe a kid to get on anything older than a Farr 40, Mumm 30 because they are 30+ year old designs. We need to stop racing 5kt shit boxes if we want kids to stick around.
Someone said it best, I think it was Clean, “Fiberglass lasts too long.” And that’s what’s killing sailing.
'Bacco
Member
Dude, you can't make the argument that people should only sail new fast boats, and then bitch that a Vakaros is $1k. When a new Beneteau 36 is pushing half a milly, a new sail or a Vakaros costs next to nothing.
If your argument is that saving sailing can only be done on newer faster boats, the logical next step is to attract new rich boat owners. Those guys will keep buying the go-fast gear and the price will keep going up. It's flawed logic. Race a J/35, throw some white claws in the ice box, and let the millennials have some fun.
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floater
Towards thee I roll..
when I was in college a friend of a friend took me out for a sail in his old wooden 6m.
hated that thing.
Autonomous
Turgid Member
Tennis, anyone?
Sailing is not the only recreational activity that can fall out of fashion. We need to factor this as well.
My kids were raised with sailing experience and my grandkids have been-will be too.
What they do with that is their business.
Sailing is not the only recreational activity that can fall out of fashion. We need to factor this as well.
My kids were raised with sailing experience and my grandkids have been-will be too.
What they do with that is their business.
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
FYI
When C&C 35s were new we were racing in numbers beyond anyone's dreams today. They and their contemporaries are STILL racing now at 45-50-or more years old and also cruising, daysailing, being liveaboards, and anything else boats can do.
Every time someone goes on about all the terrible old boats that everyone hates and how terrible the terrible old boats are, I remember they utterly kicked ass in getting boats on the line and people on boats.
Your super-carbon-fantastic-thing is not populating race courses and I severely doubt they'll be be doing anything 50 years from now.
BTW - if "the kids" don't like the boats the adults own and pay for, just like the 1970s or the 1570s for that matter, they can get a job and buy a super-light-whatever and pay all the bills when it breaks.
* also back then keels falling off was not a thing we worried about
