Front page screed

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,632
2,101
Looking at the images of the Maxi Cup in Sardinia reinforces my impression that successful, uber wealthy people are going to spend their money in the way they wish.

1662559573260.png


1662559527754.png


Some will buy hugely technical, incredibly fast foiling boats
Some will buy luxurious heavy 80 foot maxis
Some will participate in the Americas Cup
Some will buy Formula One teams for their kids

But the person who can increase participation in sailing at your club is...you!
 

Curious2

Anarchist
670
246
Multiple Choice:
If Harry Vanderbilt had known about foils, and had the technology to build and race a foiling monohull......would Ranger have had foils?

A. No, in the spirit of a "friendly competition", Harry would want to give Sir Thomas Sopwith a sporting chance of winning.
B. No, Harry was a traditionalist and did not like innovation.
C. No, Harry liked closely fought matches with the end result uncertain until the final race,
D Absolutely yes. The Vanderbilts viewed the AC as a design competition as well as a sailing match. The goal was to win and run what you brung. From Reliance to Ranger they pushed the envelope as far as the rules allowed winning 15 of 17 races. They won 3 ACs without the other side scoring a single race and the 1934's 4 :2 victory over Sopwith in the prior cup was too close for comfort.

And the correct answer is, of course, E;

E - No, because the challengers (Lipton and Sopwith) and potential challengers (Allom and Fairey) were only going to challenge if the rules required the event to be sailed in big, seaworthy mainstream boats. As Lipton said in 1909, he wanted “a contest between boats of wholesome type and not with a freak”. That's why Lipton and the NYYC didn't agree on challenge terms after Reliance until the NYYC gave way and agreed to sailed in the more conventional Universal Rule boats, and why Sopwith, Vanderbilt and the other J Class owners agreed to make the boats built to Lloyds, with heavy masts and full internal accommodation.

Ranger, as a Universal Rule boat, was of a "seaworthy and wholesome type" with a "normal and wholesome hull" (to quote Prof Charles Poor, one of the top US rating experts of the time) and (as quoted earlier) seen as a racer/cruiser when compared to other British "Big Class" yachts. As a Universal Rule boat she was, as Poor wrote and Herreshoff allegedly said, slower than Reliance, but that did not phase Vanderbilt. After all, pure speed doesn't seem to have really interested him; he raced his M Class for years when he could have sailed a J, and later in life he moved to a 12. He never built a modern version of the old Herreshoff cats or a big scow-like Seawanhaka Rule boat. Ranger's co-designer, Olin Stephens, never did anything but "mainstream" boats; when Toria and Pen Duick III were coming out, Olin was creating boats like Running Tide and Columbia.

As in earlier posts, I am using actual quotes and contemporary factual information, and you seem to be relying on PR spin or something.

The foiling AC cats and Sail GP do not seem to have had a negative impact on sailing. The number of new cruising cats sold vs monohulls has been climbing steadily.

Shockingly, it appears that the customer can distinguish between the boats that are used at elite competition and the boats they are likely to sail.

People are not as stupid as curious2 would have us believe.

Nor has Top Gun 2 led to a sudden decline in flight school attendance . The customer does not equate the Cessna 172 with an F14.

It's interesting how you bring in statistics when they suit you (as in the mono v multi mix) but ignore them when they do not, as in the major public surveys of the perception of the sport. It is odd how you manage to identify what is causing sailing's falling appeal so precisely that you know exactly what is NOT a factor.

You are once again making a strawman claim that I believe people are stupid. I certainly do NOT; in fact I believe sailors are smart enough to know where the true future of the sport lies, and they show that by mostly sticking to mainstream classes (although some of them, like me, have also spent a lot of time on high-performance craft like foilers, which are also wonderful but will always be only a niche).

A sport's promotion, as demonstrated by its most-hyped event, does affect the perception of the sport and no one would doubt that. It is silly of you to say that means anyone is saying that people are stupid.

I'm still doing a lot to promote sailing. It's just sad when other people who do the same can't even open up their minds to look at the most effective way of doing that, without childish tactics like making up strawman arguments. Given your dishonest "discussion" methods I shall walk away from this discussion.
 
Last edited:

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,140
1,282
Shanghai, China
If we constantly say "you're wrong", "your wrong" we will get nowhere. I don't know who said it but the best way to have more people sailing next season than this season is through the clubs and by definition through the efforts of the club members to get people on the water. We started a club here with 6 very beat up throwaway Wanderer dinghies from the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club. Within two years the membership topped 200 through members encouraging friends to come along, with club open days, with some members volunteering to run events instead of being out sailing themselves every weekend. Then after a few years the club leadership changed, those who had done the original building had other projects perhaps and now the club is no more.

"Just when you think you have arrived on easy street you realise there is no parking".

The effort has to be almost continuous, I know, I have been there I have done that. Major televised events wont put people off, they might just get a few people thinking, but they are not as likely to get someone involved as putting a real bum on a real seat.

There is a reason the term "grass roots" is used is often and if I have to explain why then you clearly don't get the point. It takes effort, sometimes years of effort to build anything meaningful, be it a club, an event, a class, whatever and even then an unexpected factor can put the brakes on progress very quickly.

The New Zealand Government didn't want to fund AC37 because the return on AC36 wasn't good enough for them even though it had been successful in the past. It wasn't the event's fault.

Here in China we have spent 16 years building an event from 2 beat up old keelboats to the largest one design keelboat regatta in Asia with an average of over 40 boats over the last 4 years (2021 excepted)- it didn't happen last year and we all know why. Will we give up? Damn right we wont. As soon this bloody COVID is out of the way we will be back pressing the go button.

It is so easy to blame others from behind a keyboard while doing nothing actually constructive to address the situation.

Perhaps, instead of knocking the parts of an idea we don't like, why not highlight the parts we do. Then get off our backsides and get out and do something about it.

Mark you that would make this forum thread somewhat shorter than it is :)

Rant over

Now, what was this thread about again?

SS
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,632
2,101
And the correct answer is, of course, E;

E - No, because the challengers (Lipton and Sopwith) and potential challengers (Allom and Fairey) were only going to challenge if the rules required the event to be sailed in big, seaworthy mainstream boats. As Lipton said in 1909, he wanted “a contest between boats of wholesome type and not with a freak”. That's why Lipton and the NYYC didn't agree on challenge terms after Reliance until the NYYC gave way and agreed to sailed in the more conventional Universal Rule boats, and why Sopwith, Vanderbilt and the other J Class owners agreed to make the boats built to Lloyds, with heavy masts and full internal accommodation.

Ranger, as a Universal Rule boat, was of a "seaworthy and wholesome type" with a "normal and wholesome hull" (to quote Prof Charles Poor, one of the top US rating experts of the time) and (as quoted earlier) seen as a racer/cruiser when compared to other British "Big Class" yachts. As a Universal Rule boat she was, as Poor wrote and Herreshoff allegedly said, slower than Reliance, but that did not phase Vanderbilt. After all, pure speed doesn't seem to have really interested him; he raced his M Class for years when he could have sailed a J, and later in life he moved to a 12. He never built a modern version of the old Herreshoff cats or a big scow-like Seawanhaka Rule boat. Ranger's co-designer, Olin Stephens, never did anything but "mainstream" boats; when Toria and Pen Duick III were coming out, Olin was creating boats like Running Tide and Columbia.

As in earlier posts, I am using actual quotes and contemporary factual information, and you seem to be relying on PR spin or something.



It's interesting how you bring in statistics when they suit you (as in the mono v multi mix) but ignore them when they do not, as in the major public surveys of the perception of the sport. It is odd how you manage to identify what is causing sailing's falling appeal so precisely that you know exactly what is NOT a factor.

You are once again making a strawman claim that I believe people are stupid. I certainly do NOT; in fact I believe sailors are smart enough to know where the true future of the sport lies, and they show that by mostly sticking to mainstream classes (although some of them, like me, have also spent a lot of time on high-performance craft like foilers, which are also wonderful but will always be only a niche).

A sport's promotion, as demonstrated by its most-hyped event, does affect the perception of the sport and no one would doubt that. It is silly of you to say that means anyone is saying that people are stupid.

I'm still doing a lot to promote sailing. It's just sad when other people who do the same can't even open up their minds to look at the most effective way of doing that, without childish tactics like making up strawman arguments. Given your dishonest "discussion" methods I shall walk away from this discussion.
It would have been possible to build a seaworthy yacht that met the universal rule with foils. They did not have the technology at the time. By the way, Sopwith and Ranger were racing in 1937, not 1909. Very different era in so many ways.

But you failed to see the overall point and the light humor in making it.

The overall point is simply this. The America's Cup is a match race between the uber wealthy. They may choose to use the most exotic technology available in the world....or not. Their choice of equipment does not appear to have affected the growth or decline of mainstream sailing.

You have produced* evidence to support many of your other good points, like accessibility, expense etc. ( *In many cases you did not actually produce the evidence...you referred to evidence without publishing the link or supplying the full text. ) But you have not produced a whit of evidence showing that the choice of AC equipment affected the growth of mainstream sailing one way or another. Since the premise is unlikely, and the evidence not forthcoming....I remain unconvinced.

During the J Boat era, the fastest growing class was the Star class and similar smaller boats. J Boats were inaccessible to all but the wealthiest in the land.
During the heyday of the growth of popular sailing in the 1960s,70s and 80s, a large part of the growth of the sport was coming from light displacement, planing dinghies like the Laser, the Mirror Dinghy, Fireballs and 505s. The AC was still being sailed in 12 meters, and the meter classes were not leading the growth of the sport...far from it, they remained an obscure niche enjoyed by some wealthy traditionalists.
The explosion in cruising multi hulls did overlap with the AC racing in multi hulls but I would argue that is a coincidence.

As others have tried to point out, the choice of equipment for the AC neither helps nor hinders the mainstream grass roots of the sport. That is down to us.
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,632
2,101
Given your dishonest "discussion" methods I shall walk away from this discussion.

You are walking away from the discussion because people disagree with you.

I'll bet we would enjoy each others company if we met in real life. However I would tell you there as I am telling you now, that you have a preconceived and blinkered bias against the equipment used in the AC . Take a pause and ask yourself, really.....is the equipment in the AC really hurting mainstream sailing?

In the meantime, remember your hat and please don't slam the door
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,632
2,101
Now, what was this thread about again?

SS
Ancient Dave published a front page full of gibberish claiming that the current AC was destroying the AC.
In support of that gibberish, some go further and claim that the current AC is damaging the sport as a whole.

I think Liquid had the best summary :)

Just stop!

It's just a cup exchanged by excessively wealthy individuals after winning a sail boat race.

That's what it is, nothing more!

Making it a gravy train, won't sustain the cup or suddenly make sailing mainstream!



Rich guy wins yacht race!! Has been, always will be.
 

Curious2

Anarchist
670
246
If we constantly say "you're wrong", "your wrong" we will get nowhere. I don't know who said it but the best way to have more people sailing next season than this season is through the clubs and by definition through the efforts of the club members to get people on the water. We started a club here with 6 very beat up throwaway Wanderer dinghies from the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club. Within two years the membership topped 200 through members encouraging friends to come along, with club open days, with some members volunteering to run events instead of being out sailing themselves every weekend. Then after a few years the club leadership changed, those who had done the original building had other projects perhaps and now the club is no more.

"Just when you think you have arrived on easy street you realise there is no parking".

The effort has to be almost continuous, I know, I have been there I have done that. Major televised events wont put people off, they might just get a few people thinking, but they are not as likely to get someone involved as putting a real bum on a real seat.

There is a reason the term "grass roots" is used is often and if I have to explain why then you clearly don't get the point. It takes effort, sometimes years of effort to build anything meaningful, be it a club, an event, a class, whatever and even then an unexpected factor can put the brakes on progress very quickly.

The New Zealand Government didn't want to fund AC37 because the return on AC36 wasn't good enough for them even though it had been successful in the past. It wasn't the event's fault.

Here in China we have spent 16 years building an event from 2 beat up old keelboats to the largest one design keelboat regatta in Asia with an average of over 40 boats over the last 4 years (2021 excepted)- it didn't happen last year and we all know why. Will we give up? Damn right we wont. As soon this bloody COVID is out of the way we will be back pressing the go button.

It is so easy to blame others from behind a keyboard while doing nothing actually constructive to address the situation.

Perhaps, instead of knocking the parts of an idea we don't like, why not highlight the parts we do. Then get off our backsides and get out and do something about it.

Mark you that would make this forum thread somewhat shorter than it is :)

Rant over

Now, what was this thread about again?

SS

SS, we're on similar ground - as you say, major events are not as likely to get someone involved as putting a real bum on a real seat as working on the grass roots. I merely raise the point that maybe it could go a little bit further than that.

As far as saying "you're wrong, you're wrong" - sorry, but it is frustrating to deal with people who make claims that are factually wrong as the basis for their argument, and seem reluctant to admit it, or bring in a side issue to try to fudge the fact that their claim was 100% factually incorrect.

I spend a lot of time dealing with people in professions where, once they have been proven to be incorrect on a particular point (which is no one's fault and no big deal) they just admit it and open their minds.

As far as the rest of it goes; I have spent years off my backside. I just got home now from scrubbing the kitchen cupboards at the club, cutting into the back tank of a club training boat to re-do the pintles, and dropping off a trailer I bought to go under a club boat. I've spent years doing the same sort of stuff, as have you.

Given the enormous number of people who keep the sport alive by their volunteer efforts, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what could be causing it to shrink markedly in many regions.
 
Last edited:

Curious2

Anarchist
670
246
You are walking away from the discussion because people disagree with you.

I'll bet we would enjoy each others company if we met in real life. However I would tell you there as I am telling you now, that you have a preconceived and blinkered bias against the equipment used in the AC . Take a pause and ask yourself, really.....is the equipment in the AC really hurting mainstream sailing?

In the meantime, remember your hat and please don't slam the door

No, I am trying to walk away because of your double standards and dishonesty.

Your dishonesty is shown in the fact that you claim I've got a bias against the AC gear. You have zero evidence for your claim, and it's untrue. Earlier you claimed I was biased towards 18s instead of shorthanded multis. That was also complete rubbish, and yet rather than re-thinking you merely re-hash the same sort of false charges.

Your double standards are illustrated (in just one way) by the way you note I haven't always shown links. You haven't shown any links to support your case, but apparently you feel that you don't need to but that I must. Why the double standard? Oh, and anyone who can use Google can find the Gemba report, for example, or the F1 report I mentioned.

I have taken many pauses, I have spent a lot of time looking at the objective evidence like the Gemba report, the remarks of the head of British Motorsport about the problems that F1's image causes to grass roots motorsport, and class sales and activity trends.

I would love an interesting discussion with people who disagreed with me, but did so in an informed and honourable manner, as SS does. You use strawman tactics and shut your eyes when you post stuff that just is not true, and that is not interesting or enjoyable.
 
Last edited:

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,632
2,101
No, I am trying to walk away because of your double standards and dishonesty.
Your standard response for several pages has been to accuse everyone who disagrees with you as having double standards or being dishonest.

You go on and on and on about your evidence. But when someone asks you to produce evidence for your thesis that the current version of the AC is hurting mainstream sailing, your response is to ask us for evidence that it is not hurting mainstream sailing.

Then you pout, say you are leaving , come back and tell us you've scrubbed the kitchen cabinets and looked at the objective evidence.

If you have looked at the objective evidence, share it with us. Or as a colleague used to say "Put up or shut up".


Given the enormous number of people who keep the sport alive by their volunteer efforts, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what could be causing it to shrink markedly in many regions.

But you don't ask. You tell and lecture.

Many of us here give countless hours of volunteer time in addition to a busy professional life.
 

NeedAClew

Super Anarchist
6,124
1,730
USA
Glad one uber wealthy person got some fun for the $$$$$$$$. Wonder if Ed. will make this SCOW?

Prolly more fun than being with Eric S. I knew him before Google. What a dork.

PS and at least some hardware for NYYC.


Trieste, 10 October 2022 – A dream come true. The Barcolana Cup is flying to the United States, to the New York Yacht Club, the same club that has held the America’s Cup for 132 years. American entrepreneur and philanthropist Wendy Schmidt and her Deep Blue have won the 54th edition of the Barcolana presented by Generali, which was held in Trieste yesterday on a perfect sunny day, with the Bora and gusts of wind up to 25 knots. 1614 boats took part in the race, with the Amerigo Vespucci ship symbolically kicking off the regatta. Wendy Schmidt has also won the ‘Women in Sailing’ Generali Cup, awarded to the first female skipper in a mixed crew, and it is the first time that a single team has won both cups.

Deep Blue crossed the finish line in 57’47”, beating Furio Benussi’s Arca by 59 seconds. Portopiccolo Prosecco Doc came in third, with Mitja Kosmina at the helm. “It is a dream come true,” said SVBG President Mitja Gialuz. “The Barcolana Cup, that was first organised in Barcola, a club of humble origins, will land at the New York Yacht Club. Trieste saw great celebrations both on land and at sea. The Barcolana, as often happens, has surprised everyone, giving us a wonderful week and an unforgettable day.” “I am happy for my team,” said American sailor Wendy Schmidt, “and for everyone who has worked so hard for so long – we have been sailing together for 15 years. Thank you, Trieste. Everyone has been absolutely wonderful here and it was a pleasure to sail and enjoy this beautiful natural landscape. Now I get why everyone loves taking part in this regatta in this city.”

Speaking of female leadership, she added, “There are so many great, passionate, smart, talented female sailors. Sailing is a wonderful sport that knows no gender, age, or barriers. I always encourage people to sail because we are all linked to the ocean: whether we know it or not, we are all part of its future.”

PLAY-BY-PLAY – It is a wonderful sailing day in Trieste, with a light Bora in the early morning which then becomes increasingly stronger, until it reaches 28 knots in gusts. 1614 boats are at the starting line of an exceptional Barcolana. The start is adrenalin-filled, to say the least: the big names of the regatta are close together, but each one has its own clear idea of where to start from, because, with the Bora blowing, the best starting point is closest to Barcola. Arca starts between the centre of the line and Barcola, immediately hoists a headsail to luff at every gust of wind and aims to break away from the group quickly. Deep Blue sails downwind and hoists a gennaker for a different point of sail and immediately shows the perfect trim that it will then keep throughout the race. Portopiccolo Prosecco DOC, with Mitja Kosmina at the helm, starts under Barcola resisting the strongest gusts. Maxi Jena and Ewol Way of Life are right behind it, with the latter being forced to chase because of an improper hoisting of the gennaker. Woodpecker Cube Generali THSN sails close by. Some boats in the smaller categories have their moments of glory resisting the gusts of wind while surfing, in a Barcolana that will be one to remember.

A few minutes after the start, just as Arca is very close to Deep Blue, which is leading the regatta, the attachment of Arca’s headsail, that was allowing the overtaking, breaks. This is followed by frenetic moments: Furio Benussi’s crew are able to manage the situation but decide to abandon the sail at sea to adjust the trim, while Deep Blue continues its course towards the first buoy with surgical precision. Arca’s sail was retrieved by a support vessel, and this gave rise to a protest by Way of Life that will probably be discussed tomorrow by the international board. “As sailors and sports professionals, it is clear that the ISAF regulations have been broken”, wrote the Way of Life team in a note later in the afternoon, referring to the fact that the sail was left to the support vessel to recover instead of being retreived by the team.

However, the race is still open. Arca is the second to pass the first buoy, 140 metres behind Deep Blue, followed by Portopiccolo Prosecco Doc and Maxi Jena. It tries to make up ground in every possible way, but Wendy Schmidt remains in the best position in this duel at close quarters – almost a match race in a fleet race involving 1600 boats. Schmidt is able to keep the upper hand over Furio Benussi, who takes advantage of every gust of wind, trying to luff and bear away in order to find a way to overtake. The wind increases more and more on the side between Miramare and Trieste, with gusts reaching 28 knots. Benussi has to reef the mainsail to manage the gusts as best as possible, while Deep Blue confronts each gust with determination. The moment when the American team skippered by a woman crosses the finish line will go down in the history of the Barcolana, with Trieste warmly celebrating the first female skipper to win the race.

It has been an epic regatta for many crews, which have performed incredible feats in fighting against the gusting Bora in this edition. You will find the provisional classifications, both overall and by category, on the Barcolana website.


1665427885306.png
 

Latest posts




Top