Front page screed

MRS OCTOPUS

Anarchist
715
247
AUSTRALIA
Lets take a wild ass guess at Windsurfer LT. Not many classes are getting these numbers to a worlds…..

Cheap, fun, close, onedesign racing. Exactly what most sailors want . Who woudav thunk it.
From Windsurfer FB page.

345 and counting...
The registrations keep on rolling in for the 2022 Worlds in Mondello with 22 countries represented.
Aussie numbers are now 38 - the third highest contingent behind Italy and France.
 
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shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,140
1,282
Shanghai, China
Again, which class and which clubs?

Are you referring to the Kona windsurfing class? I confess I had never heard that they had an independent class association. The "class stuff" page of the website consists of an image of what looks like the empty lobby of a hotel. 30 boards built in 2020 and 2021 does not qualify it as one as the fastest growing classes in the world in sheer numbers, or even commercially successful in the windsurfing and SUP market place. . They haven't held a world championship since 2019.

However I think you throw a lot of passion and energy into the sport so I admire you for that. I think that sparkplugs like your self have more impact on the sport than than these forums.

I just happen to disagree with your premise that high performance sailing, and the televising of high performance sailing damages the sport of sailing. I think that @dogwatch and @shanghaisailor are more on track in understanding the decline from the sport's peak. Even if SS uses 30 words where 10 will suffice.

I also think that articles from that ancient crone Anarchist David merely demonstrate how out of touch he is with sailing today, and I don't know what that says about Sailing Anarchy that they publish such gibberish. SA badly needs to find some relevant authors or resign itself to an irrelevant site.
:) I hear what you are saying EYESAILOR. However not everyone is as quick on the uptake as you are and, as I have learned from a long career in what was essentially communication I have learned that many require more words/information to receive the message than your good self :)

I do agree that words are cheap and the to-ing and froing on these forums will do nothing to grow our sport (or at the most very little) and it takes getting one's hands dirty to make any difference.

I also cannot figure why such inaccuracy as Anarchist David's stuff is given prominence, my only disagreement there is I thought he was a high school kid rather than an old crone. I sent a response to his latest fiction but the editor declined to post it.

It is deeds and real effort away from a computer keyboard that make the difference including investment of one's time (and sometimes one's money) that will help our sport survive and thrive but so many people - too many people - expect others to put in the effort while not raising a finger themselves. I have seen it so many times.

Maybe the site needs some new authors but I haven't seen queues of them stepping up.

Oops - that, once again, is 30 words but 10 wouldn't have been enough ;)
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,642
2,108
:) I hear what you are saying EYESAILOR. However not everyone is as quick on the uptake as you are and, as I have learned from a long career in what was essentially communication I have learned that many require more words/information to receive the message than your good self :)
I was merely observing that your bias is towards the verbose rather then succinct. There is room for both styles.
I do agree that words are cheap and the to-ing and froing on these forums will do nothing to grow our sport (or at the most very little) and it takes getting one's hands dirty to make any difference.
Communication is important alongside action. I was trying to compliment @Curious2 on his action,
since I disagree with his conclusions on communication. Anyone and everyone who contributes to the sport deserves credit in my book.

I also cannot figure why such inaccuracy as Anarchist David's stuff is given prominence, my only disagreement there is I thought he was a high school kid rather than an old crone. I sent a response to his latest fiction but the editor declined to post it.
I agree it is difficult to judge because he writes with the style of a 10 year old with the content of an 95 year old.
Eventually I decided it is easier for an old man to write like AD, than it is for a kid to think like AD.

It is deeds and real effort away from a computer keyboard that make the difference including investment of one's time (and sometimes one's money) that will help our sport survive and thrive but so many people - too many people - expect others to put in the effort while not raising a finger themselves. I have seen it so many times.
I celebrate anyone who is having fun either as a participant or an organizer.
Maybe the site needs some new authors but I haven't seen queues of them stepping up.
The true test of a skilled publisher and editor is attracting content and authors. Success breeds success. The better the quality of the publication, the more people want to write for it, and the better it gets. Failure begets failure! As the quality of content in a publication declines, the more embarrassed the better authors are about being associated with it and the less inclined they are to submit content.

SA is on the edge.

We can recall when SA carried articles giving inside story of the 505 worlds written by a sailor in the top 5, or
reports on Melges 24/32 championships by people who sailed them, technical controversies analyzed by naval architects, or a report on Cowes week by someone at Cowes.

In contrast today , with the sailing season at its height in the Northern hemisphere we have links to articles in the Maritime Executive or Sea Horse, links to articles in French, pimping articles for sunglasses, block locks and Stephen Waring Design, the terrific news that Sandy Oatley had a big smile on his face sailing his own yacht at his own island, accompanying a cut and paste announcement that a club in Australia is about to start its Spring series again.

Despite the paucity of competition from other content on the site, Anarchist David hits a new low.


Oops - that, once again, is 30 words but 10 wouldn't have been enough ;)
On the contrary, you did not go completely off topic to start reminiscing about some lassie you met in a bar on the Clyde in the 1960s or lessons learnt from the umpiring at the start of the 2011 Phuket to Macau double handed race. Congrats :)
 
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Gissie

Super Anarchist
6,550
1,747
I was merely observing that your bias is towards the verbose rather then succinct. There is room for both styles.

Communication is important alongside action. I was trying to compliment @Curious2 on his action,
since I disagree with his conclusions on communication. Anyone and everyone who contributes to the sport deserves credit in my book.


I agree it is difficult to judge because he writes with the style of a 10 year old with the content of an 95 year old.
Eventually I decided it is easier for an old man to write like AD, than it is for a kid to think like AD.


I celebrate anyone who is having fun either as a participant or an organizer.

The true test of a skilled publisher and editor is attracting content and authors. Success breeds success. The better the quality of the publication, the more people want to write for it, and the better it gets. Failure begets failure! As the quality of content in a publication declines, the more embarrassed the better authors are about being associated with it and the less inclined they are to submit content.

SA is on the edge.

We can recall when SA carried articles giving inside story of the 505 worlds written by a sailor in the top 5, or
reports on Melges 24/32 championships by people who sailed them, technical controversies analyzed by naval architects, or a report on Cowes week by someone at Cowes.

In contrast today , with the sailing season at its height in the Northern hemisphere we have links to articles in the Maritime Executive or Sea Horse, links to articles in French, pimping articles for sunglasses, block locks and Stephen Waring Design, the terrific news that Sandy Oatley had a big smile on his face sailing his own yacht at his own island, accompanying a cut and paste announcement that a club in Australia is about to start its Spring series again.

Despite the paucity of competition from other content on the site, Anarchist David hits a new low.



On the contrary, you did not go completely off topic to start reminiscing about some lassie you met in a bar on the Clyde in the 1960s or lessons learnt from the umpiring at the start of the 2011 Phuket to Macau double handed race. Congrats :)
And you complained SS used 30 when 10 would suffice...
 

Curious2

Anarchist
672
247
Eyesailor, I did NOT say that high performance sailing damaged the sport; it's a great area and one I have spent a lot of time in. My point is that overly promoting the "extreme" end of a sport can harm the sport, because it emphasises how innaccessible it is to most people and therefore stops them from trying it. See, for example, the old North Sails/Sunfish and the newer Australian Sailing/Gemba studies of the public perception of sailing, if one wants to see actual research and facts......

I'm not arguing against SS, but agreeing with him in most ways. The fact that gender roles are changing does not have to harm our sport; if we use the right approach we can benefit from it. As old examples, the boom in DIY boatbuilding decades ago has been linked to a reaction to changing gender roles (see Andrew Jackson, "Labour as Leisure; the Mirror Dinghy and DIY sailors" and Steven Gelber's works).

Anarchist David doesn't seem to be particularly out of touch with real sailing today. The biggest championships this year, for example, will probably be in Optis, Lasers and the RS200 and Windsurfer LT which both closed their championship entries at no less than 360 sailors. So in terms of numbers, the sport is actually pretty much where AD seems to be. The presence of about 250 young adults at the 200 nationals - far more than at any "extreme" boat regatta - says a lot in itself about where the main part of the sport is heading.

Since you haven't answered the questions I asked earlier, I'll do it as a finale;

1- One can count over 162 racing yachts that were as big, or bigger, than the J Class from the time the AC started until the end of the J era. Close to 10% of them were too big to be allowed into the AC. Many were "inshore" boats of similar size and speed to the Js that were never intended to have anything to do with the AC, but just to do the normal "big boat" circuit.

Many Js and similar boats raced up and down the UK coast, across some seas, to France, Germany and the Med, and in the USA. They could race 40 times a year or more, in the same regatta and on the same courses as 19 Metres, 8 Metres, Three Tonners, one designs, Half Raters or even sailing trawlers. They shared the regattas with many boats built to the same rating rules - there were almost 150 15 Footer/Half Raters launched around 1894 in the US alone, to the same rules as the AC size boats, for example.

The Js and the other big AC boats were not extreme beasts; they were one third of the weight of the biggest racing schooners and there were many racer/cruiser yawls of similar or larger size, like Lethe, Wendur, White Heather (1) or Brynhilde (1). They were not rarely-seen exotica; Britannia, for example, sometimes raced at about 25% of UK clubs in a single year, sailing in the shallow Thames, the Firths of Scotland, across to Northern Ireland and down to the Med. They weren't extreme in design; Uffa Fox and others noted that small boats almost always lead the way with innovations. For example, yes, an AC boat had the first alloy mast - but an AC boat wasn't the first alloy racing yacht. The AC was still being sailed in gaffers when Nyria, only a couple of feet shorter than the early Js, was using a bermudian rig.

Compare that to the current AC. I don't think a single boat from the last four AC classes has ever raced in a regular regatta like Cowes, Kiel or a normal US event. There are no smaller club-racing versions in the same way that the older AC boats had with Ms, Ps, Forty Raters and Half Raters etc, and you won't see current AC boats in the Fastnet, Swiftsure, Hobart or Cowes as you did with 12s like Endless Summer, American Eagle and Gretel 1.

The facts are that, as David said, the modern AC is vastly more removed from the mainstream than it used to be.

I probably won't post again because it's frustrating when people refuse to look at what actually occurred in past eras, or research the factors involved in sports participation. It reminds me a lot of anti-vaxxers who believe that their lay opinion is as valid as that of people who have studied the fields.

It's also frustrating when you say you don't believe that discussions like this can have an impact when I have provided details where it did. I'm not a liar so don't imply I am.
 
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EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,642
2,108
You misunderstand where we disagree and where we agree.
Eyesailor, I did NOT say that high performance sailing damaged the sport; it's a great area and one I have spent a lot of time in. My point is that overly promoting the "extreme" end of a sport can harm the sport, because it emphasises how innaccessible it is to most people and therefore stops them from trying it. See, for example, the old North Sails/Sunfish and the newer Australian Sailing/Gemba studies of the public perception of sailing, if one wants to see actual research and facts......
What you have said and implied many times is that racing and televising the America's Cup in high performance, extreme boats somehow damages the sport of sailing.

Watching superstars who seem unattainable (ie sailing boats the average person will never sail) turns some people off,

the "broadcast high-performance pro sailing will be great for the sport" bullshit

Much of the case I am making is that it's not helpful to promote the extreme side of the sport

Eye and others have pushed back on this claim. As I stated succinctly in my early response to your posts

I think where I disagree is that I do not think that the AC ever has, or ever will, affect the growth of the sport of sailing at its grass roots.
When sailing took off in terms of popularity it had nothing to do with the AC. The factors which caused sailing to decline to a more realistic plateau have nothing to do with the AC.

You have not supported your claim that sailing the AC in high performance foiling boats has damaged the sport. If you have data, post the links.

don't claim I am not giving data when I am.
There is a lot of other stuff you have written , and supported with data that I strongly agree with. But since this thread started with well directed criticism of the horse shit that AD writes, I was focused on the topic of the AC.
If you think that AD is a compelling and entertaining writer with a relevant take on what is happening in sailing and in media today then 1) We must agree to disagree and leave it at that and 2) Frankly, I'm shocked.

Finally, I have two times expressed my appreciation for your actions (actions speak louder than words) in supporting and growing the sport....and altho' I strongly disagree with your take on the negative impact of the media interest in the AC ......I strongly agree with many of your other points and I will illustrate in my next post.
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,642
2,108
Decisions should be fact-based; for example there are many studies on the factors that cause people to drop out of sport. Among the top ones are expense, lack of time and excessive emphasis on excellence and competition - and a perceived lack of competence is a major cause of drop out in youth. If WS and other bodies are going to take a course then they should be able to use objective data rather than anecdotes or bullshit to base it on; we can all prove anything we want if we rely on anecdotes.*
Agreed. Especially at the youth level, there is an emphasis at junior sailing programs in the US on teaching very young sailors to race before teaching them to love sailing. There are 3 outcomes. 1) Young sailors deem themselves incompetent and drop out to participate in more "social" sports. 2) Young sailors do well in the junior racing environment and then drop out of the sport when that narrow specific environment disappears after college 3) A small number survive, love the wider sport of sailing and go on to participate as adult sailors.

Hence my love-hate relationship with the optimist and club 420s. It worked for my son. It failed many of his friends and his brother. I still volunteer as RC and judge at major events but I shake my head at the many pathways it creates to leave sailing.

There is interesting but statistically insignificant data that raises many questions that should be followed up that suggests non-competitive sailing programs produce a higher percentage of graduates from the programs competing at 35 years old than expensive intense competitive programs seeking to produce competitive sailors.

One weird thing is that although WS and NA decisions appear to be very largely based on silly assumptions gathered from a jumble of simplistic assumptions, they still seem to have a top-down approach where they lecture clubs and associations from on high. As someone who has run a growing class (now one of the world's fastest growing in terms of sheer numbers as well as growth rate) and run or helped to run strong and growing clubs, it's odd that those bodies have never been asked how we have become successful. Surely an MNA should have its finger on the pulse enough to see what is growing and then the curiousity to ask them what they have learned.

Agreed. It is astonishing that the MNAs do not plug into the class associations more than they do. The class associations and clubs are much closer to their sailors than the MNA or their RSAs. (I am sorry to limit my points to the USA but that is where I sail and what I know about.) The classes and the clubs have the hard data and the first hand anecdotal insights.

US Sailing went in the opposite direction a few years ago. US sailing used to represent their One Design classes. There was a One Design Council consisting of the presidents or administrators of all OD classes. The executive committee of the OD council had influence that extended to participating in the panel that selected nominees for the President and Board members of US Sailing. The OD classes were able to grill prospective nominees on their positions on policy and outlook , and provide feedback to their class members. The OD class presidents were democratically elected by sailors who usually knew them and sailed against them. The class presidents in council would elect an executive committee which would always include growing successful classes because we all wanted to learn from them. IMHO, that was a good group to influence policy and quiz prospective candidates for the Board.
Nobody likes being quizzed and challenged about the direction of the sport. So about 10 years ago, the OD council was disbanded and replaced by a OD committee that is appointed by the Board.
This represented a complete reversal. At a stroke, US sailing went from being a bottom up organization to a top-down organization.

A few years later, the OD Committee had expired altogether. It has been resuscitated in 2020 with a cttee chaired by a very nice professional sailor appointed by US sailing. The OD classes look forward to hearing from him. :) I am curious if your class has heard from them? I imagine you have lots of data.



A lot of this approach (if not specifics) can be backed up by the work done in computer game design, which is a field that uses a lot of psychological insights to encourage participation. We tend to complain about kids playing computer games, but fail to look at the reasons they do, including things like levels in gameplay, a knowledge of the metagame, etc.

This is a very general answer because although I have some very strong ideas (backed by what I think is a lot of research and significant experience) about the way we should go, going into specifics more would shed more heat than light (particularly from people who have never sailed really quick gear, run a class or club, etc). However, I will say that IMHO research shows very strongly that if we used modern tech to make the sport more accessible (cheaper, easier to use, faster to rig, etc) rather than moving towards extreme performance, and put more emphasis on having fun in the accessible popular classes and away from elitism (in gear and in national squads etc), then the sport has a very bright future**.

Agreed there is a lot of tech and insight that can be used to make the sport more accessible.modern construction can create light, easy and affordable options. I really strongly agree with this.

One slight area of disagreement. Sailing fast is fun. Fun is important. Several high performance classes have failed because they were designed by high performance sailors for highly competent sailors. However, I truly admire the small group of classes that believe that higher performance sailing can be made accessible. They appear to be successful. Going fast does not have to be difficult. In its day, the Laser was living proof of that. The Melges 15, Viper 640, VX One, UFO etc are examples that are working today.

Of course there is a huge space for low performance boats......but do not underestimate the joy of going fast. After all, there is a reason the windsurfer is having a revival.....young people and the young at heart old people like going fast.



The fact that time is short for many people, and money is short for others, is exactly why we should concentrate on accessible boats. People who are short of time and money aren't normally able to buy and sail extreme boats, which is exactly why we should concentrate on promoting boats they can own and sail. Much of the case I am making is that it's not helpful to promote the extreme side of the sport to people who cannot afford the time and money to do that sector.
Agree completely about the importance of accessible.

You occasionally seem to use "extreme" and "high performance" interchangeably. I hope and think this is a misunderstanding in communicating your views. Extreme by its very definition means it is limited to a small number of highly talented people. It is at the extreme end of the sport , so of course it is not mainstream.

We can continue to agree to disagree whether the extreme end of any sport (whether it be movies about extreme skiing, Formula 1 racing or AC sailing ) negatively impacts the rest of the sport. It sure is more fun to watch than the mainstream, and media will always pursue the viewer rather than the participant.
 

Mozzy Sails

Super Anarchist
1,256
1,129
United Kingdom
The RS 200 UK nationals, with 182 boats was fairly immense. The socials were on another level and it had a great vibe. You would think, considering the amount of bitching the front page has about the AC format, that it might have noticed this event. But also the front page of SA is probably pretty reliant on content coming to them... and perhaps none of the young competitors thought of telling SA because this isn't the place that they consume sailing media?

I found @2Curious posts interesting, and often wonder how much the focus on the AC, SailGP and high performance sailing or mega yachts alienates our sport. I also wonder how much I contribute to this!

What I will say, is one of the surprising comments I got from my AC videos was from people saying it had inspired them to take up sailing, or get back in to sailing. I am not sure quite what the link was, maybe just the idea of getting in your own dinghy and getting to play out your own private physics experiment which transcends 75 foiling AC ships to the humble windsurfer LT. So, it might not be the most helpful focus, but it's not also beyond people imagination to make the link, and therefore I don't think it's completely damaging.

I also know that quite a few of the competitors at 200s were watching SailGP and some still aspire to getting there. For them there was link between showing excellence in dinghy fleets and getting to drive a F50. Hopefully the 200 nationals will show them that beyond youth sailing and the pro ranks, there is an incredible sport where you can party with peers and race the pros.
 

Sailbydate

Super Anarchist
11,816
3,401
Kohimarama
The facts are that, as David said, the modern AC is vastly more removed from the mainstream than it used to be.
Well, that's stating the obvious. (Much like F1 is vastly removed from local car clubs and track days). But what is the effect on the future of yacht racing. All, or nothing?
 
The RS 200 UK nationals, with 182 boats was fairly immense. The socials were on another level and it had a great vibe. You would think, considering the amount of bitching the front page has about the AC format, that it might have noticed this event. But also the front page of SA is probably pretty reliant on content coming to them... and perhaps none of the young competitors thought of telling SA because this isn't the place that they consume sailing media?

I found @2Curious posts interesting, and often wonder how much the focus on the AC, SailGP and high performance sailing or mega yachts alienates our sport. I also wonder how much I contribute to this!

What I will say, is one of the surprising comments I got from my AC videos was from people saying it had inspired them to take up sailing, or get back in to sailing. I am not sure quite what the link was, maybe just the idea of getting in your own dinghy and getting to play out your own private physics experiment which transcends 75 foiling AC ships to the humble windsurfer LT. So, it might not be the most helpful focus, but it's not also beyond people imagination to make the link, and therefore I don't think it's completely damaging.

I also know that quite a few of the competitors at 200s were watching SailGP and some still aspire to getting there. For them there was link between showing excellence in dinghy fleets and getting to drive a F50. Hopefully the 200 nationals will show them that beyond youth sailing and the pro ranks, there is an incredible sport where you can party with peers and race the pros.
First I think that it is an indictment on the current state of SA's front page that Mozzy's content that we so enjoyed on you tube and these forums was leagues better than anything ever written by AD (Anarchist? seriously?) , and that there has not been any copy or content for years about events like the RS 200 nationals or 505 worlds or Windsurfer worlds.

On topic, I am not going to argue that the AC or GP 50 events are going to move the needle positively in terms of growing the sport of grass roots sailing. However I would certainly push back on someone who claims it is having a detrimental impact.
I have never been able to persuade any of my non-sailing friends to watch video of the Star Worlds or the Etchells North Americans. However there was no tearing them away from the San Francisco AC and many will watch a half hour of Sail GP. They will also watch some video from the Volvo RTW race.
The fact that we have a career path for professional sailors akin to the career paths of professional motor racers, skiers , tennis players etc gives the sport a measure of credibility in the eyes of non-sailing sports authorities. It might not be an large asset but it is certainly not a liability.
I have sailed in competition against America's Cup sailors, and I think it is unique to our sport that we can go up against the best in the world as a competent amateur. I am never going to ski with Bode Miller or play tennis against Roger Federer but I can get the chance to cross tacks with Jimmy Spithill or Paul Goodison. What is not to like?

My 2 cents.
 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
17,182
1,770
South Coast, UK
First I think that it is an indictment on the current state of SA's front page that Mozzy's content that we so enjoyed on you tube and these forums was leagues better than anything ever written by AD (Anarchist? seriously?) , and that there has not been any copy or content for years about events like the RS 200 nationals or 505 worlds or Windsurfer worlds.

It's not a statement on the "current state", it has always been thus. But who ever said the FP was intended to be provide comprehensive coverage about the state of the sailing world? Certainly since Clean went away to earn a living in the real world and support his family, any ambitions in that direction have faded away or if not the ambition, even the seed of a capability. I don't know why Eyesailor finds cause to care so much about AD's absurd ramblings, they don't actually matter in the slightest. It is sad that yachting journalism is fading away to a shadow of its former self, reflecting the current economics of print journalism, and it is to the detriment of the health of the sport. But to expect SA, and in particular the FP, to fill that void would be to howl at the moon.
 

Curious2

Anarchist
672
247
Well, that's stating the obvious. (Much like F1 is vastly removed from local car clubs and track days). But what is the effect on the future of yacht racing. All, or nothing?

Well, plenty of people think (incorrectly) that the AC has always been vastly removed from mainstream sailing, so it can't be that obvious. :)

Since you bring up F1, while writing an answer to Eyesailor I checked up some more info about its effect on motor racing. The UK is a powerhouse in the motorsport industry and yet the national body says it’s facing a “catastrophic” collapse in participation and it’s clear that it sees the image of expense and lack of access - “ the long-held perception that motorsport is out of reach for most people”- as one of the biggest causes. Formula One, as the head honcho told a UK parliamentary enquiry, is actually a problem for the wider sport because it creates the perception that all motorsport is incredibly expensive. Motorsport UK has therefore heralded “a massive change of approach”, centred about promoting accessible events including where you don’t even need a helmet, much less a racing car.

In a similar vein, the new head of the world motorsport association commissioned (and promoted) a report from sports management academic Dr Peter Hussein that pointed out that motorsport faced a huge problem with perceived expense (it was the major reason that people at kart tracks did not compete, for example), and that running F1 races could actually be a distraction from (as the report calls it) “the real business” of increasing participation at the grass roots.

It's not going to be all or nothing (and I have never said it would be) but it does seem to be an issue that WS and the sport should be looking at. At the moment we seem to be ignoring the potential problems, and also ignoring the fact that as the UK example shows, even attracting a vast audience does not prevent a collapse in participation.
 
It's not a statement on the "current state", it has always been thus. But who ever said the FP was intended to be provide comprehensive coverage about the state of the sailing world? Certainly since Clean went away to earn a living in the real world and support his family, any ambitions in that direction have faded away or if not the ambition, even the seed of a capability. I don't know why Eyesailor finds cause to care so much about AD's absurd ramblings, they don't actually matter in the slightest. It is sad that yachting journalism is fading away to a shadow of its former self, reflecting the current economics of print journalism, and it is to the detriment of the health of the sport. But to expect SA, and in particular the FP, to fill that void would be to howl at the moon.
I agree with much of what you say.
But there was a time when SA attracted some unique and quality content. @MR.CLEAN was part of that and it included Bob Perry, Jesse Falcone and many others. Anarchist David represents a new low but I'm not going to howl at the moon.
 
Well, plenty of people think (incorrectly) that the AC has always been vastly removed from mainstream sailing, so it can't be that obvious. :)
I have observed others try and dissuade you of your concern that the AC is destroying sailing so I am not going to try.

I will merely observe that prior to the 12 meter era, the AC was the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy and their paid professional sailors. The 12 meters allowed the the merely "very wealthy" to participate and even bring along some of their talented amateur friends but it did not last long until the AC returned to its previous format.

The yacht club I belong to in the USA was founded in 1928. Between 1928 and 1958 (the heydays of the universal rule and the J Class) , no member of my club ever raced against an owner or crew member of an America's Cup vessel. We were a mainstream yacht club including at least 2 Olympians in our midst. The AC was a world removed.
Between 2013 and 2022 (the onset of the foiling era in the AC) I can count without inquiry at least 20 members of our club who have raced with or against AC sailors or syndicate heads. I can think of at least 3 AC sailors who have come and raced at our club in boats that we consider mainstream.
Without trying to prove or disprove anyone's point, anecdotally, today's AC sailors are more closely connected to the mainstream of sailing than the AC sailors on the J Class.
 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,140
1,282
Shanghai, China
First I think that it is an indictment on the current state of SA's front page that Mozzy's content that we so enjoyed on you tube and these forums was leagues better than anything ever written by AD (Anarchist? seriously?) , and that there has not been any copy or content for years about events like the RS 200 nationals or 505 worlds or Windsurfer worlds.
Ha ha - I was criticised by some for writing about Cowes Week when I wasn't there but I spoke with, listen to and read the press releases because no one else stepped up. If media that you pay for doesn't cover something important you have a legitimate gripe but the last time I checked I don't have to pay a subscription. Mambo Kings, I notice at the foot of your post a whole heap of events. Will you be at any of them? How about a regatta report? If not, stop moaning about not being able to read about them on the back of someone else's efforts. Perhaps if more people tried to write meaningful stuff the Editor wouldn't be so inclined to post AD's rubbish - it couldn't be any worse.

Dogwatch, I agree with you that quality yachting writers are not exactly common. While I would not (and could not) claim to be sailing's equivalent of a Pulitzer Prize contender at least when I started I was fortunate enough to have my early ramblings "marked" by The Fish, probably one of the best ever and he put me on the right track regarding research, second verification, don't unnecessarily attack people and so on.

I personally like Matt Sheahan, Andy Rice, Richard Gladwell, Tom Cunliffe, James Boyd amongst others because, although I don't always agree with any opinion pieces that they write, at the very least they do know what they are talking about. Them and of course most of the writing in Seahorse.
 

accnick

Super Anarchist
3,520
2,521
I have observed others try and dissuade you of your concern that the AC is destroying sailing so I am not going to try.

I will merely observe that prior to the 12 meter era, the AC was the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy and their paid professional sailors. The 12 meters allowed the the merely "very wealthy" to participate and even bring along some of their talented amateur friends but it did not last long until the AC returned to its previous format.

The yacht club I belong to in the USA was founded in 1928. Between 1928 and 1958 (the heydays of the universal rule and the J Class) , no member of my club ever raced against an owner or crew member of an America's Cup vessel. We were a mainstream yacht club including at least 2 Olympians in our midst. The AC was a world removed.
Between 2013 and 2022 (the onset of the foiling era in the AC) I can count without inquiry at least 20 members of our club who have raced with or against AC sailors or syndicate heads. I can think of at least 3 AC sailors who have come and raced at our club in boats that we consider mainstream.
Without trying to prove or disprove anyone's point, anecdotally, today's AC sailors are more closely connected to the mainstream of sailing than the AC sailors on the J Class.
Just to clarify, there was no AC racing in the 21 years between the 1937 Cup in J boats and 1958, the first year of AC racing in the 12mR class. The 12s were used for 29 years of regular AC racing, longer than any other single class.

They were and are well-suited for racing by both skilled amateur and professional crews.

Few AC “professional” 12m crew members received much more than living expenses and a nominal stipend, at least through the 1983 Cup.

I have sailed with many of those guys over the years. They were and are as mainstream as you can get. Many have gone on to successful careers in other parts of the marine industry. Few have made a career purely out of sailing, although their sailing skills and AC experience opened a lot of doors.
 

Curious2

Anarchist
672
247
I have observed others try and dissuade you of your concern that the AC is destroying sailing so I am not going to try.


I have observed others try and dissuade you of your concern that the AC is destroying sailing so I am not going to try.

I will merely observe that prior to the 12 meter era, the AC was the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy and their paid professional sailors. The 12 meters allowed the the merely "very wealthy" to participate and even bring along some of their talented amateur friends but it did not last long until the AC returned to its previous format.

The yacht club I belong to in the USA was founded in 1928. Between 1928 and 1958 (the heydays of the universal rule and the J Class) , no member of my club ever raced against an owner or crew member of an America's Cup vessel. We were a mainstream yacht club including at least 2 Olympians in our midst. The AC was a world removed.
Between 2013 and 2022 (the onset of the foiling era in the AC) I can count without inquiry at least 20 members of our club who have raced with or against AC sailors or syndicate heads. I can think of at least 3 AC sailors who have come and raced at our club in boats that we consider mainstream.
Without trying to prove or disprove anyone's point, anecdotally, today's AC sailors are more closely connected to the mainstream of sailing than the AC sailors on the J Class.

I did NOT, and have not, claimed that the AC is "destroying" sailing. Please do not try the straw man argument. My belief is that the amount of promotion of such innaccessible types, rather than accessible ones, is probably harming sailing and that at the very least, there is no evidence that it is helping.

Your club's founder owned a Ten Metre - a boat that was part of an interlocking class system with the Js and, of course, the smaller version of a Twelve. How many of your club's current members have a boat that is so closely related to the AC cats or foilers?

That Ten Metre would have been sailed using pretty much the same techniques as a 12 or a J. How many of your current members have boats that are sailed using the same techniques as an AC75? How many foilers are there in your club?

If I applied the same test to your class that you applied to the AC, I would say that your class does not exist because it has never raced at our club and I'm 99.9999% sure no one at my club has raced with or against anyone from it. So, as you admit, the test doesn't prove anything.

To apply the same test to a harbour rather than a club, I can say that when I was growing up we had two active "amateur" 12s racing normal weekend races in the Harbour, and there were plenty of others sailing normal races in other areas. I don't think any harbour in the world has ever seen an active "amateur" AC boat doing regular club stuff since the end of the IACC era. That marks an enormous difference, IMHO.

All big racing boats prior to the 12 Metre era were the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy, just as basically all of the biggest type of racing yachts today are the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy. Both big and small yachts (down to the Half Raters) often professionally crewed so that was nothing special about the AC at all.

However, before and during the 12 Metre era the AC big boats were;

(a) part of an existing class that had raced regularly in mainstream regattas (ie those with mass participation and many other classes, although that aspect faded out in the USA for a while);
(b) designed to the same rules as a significant number of other active racing yachts (where the current AC boats are unique to the AC and its support events);
(c) of the same basic configuration (ie ballasted monos) as a very large proportion of other active racing sailboats.

None of those apply to the newer boats.

By the way, how many of your friends who watched the latest ACs got into sailing?
 
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Curious2

Anarchist
672
247
I will merely observe that prior to the 12 meter era, the AC was the preserve of the extraordinary wealthy and their paid professional sailors. The 12 meters allowed the the merely "very wealthy" to participate and even bring along some of their talented amateur friends but it did not last long until the AC returned to its previous format.

The yacht club I belong to in the USA was founded in 1928. Between 1928 and 1958 (the heydays of the universal rule and the J Class) , no member of my club ever raced against an owner or crew member of an America's Cup vessel. We were a mainstream yacht club including at least 2 Olympians in our midst. The AC was a world removed.

1) Sorry, but that's wrong. Your founder, for instance, won the 1939 Bacardi Cup against Adrian Iselin II, world champ 1936. Iselin, who was from western LIS and sailed Stars to 1952, had been one of the afterguard of Whirlwind in the 1930 AC trials. In fact the pictorial history of the Stars states that several Star skippers in the '20s were racing America's Cuppers.

Your founder also sailed his 10 Metre in the same race as Vanderbilt's M Class Prestige (ie the next size down from the Js), another M and a few 12 Metres in a fleet of no less than 268 boats down to Stars. He also raced it in the same event (albeit in a different division) as "Bubbles" Havemeyer (Ranger's alternate helmsman) and Olin Stephens (Ranger crew/co designer, of course); an event with 6 Twelve Metres at the start line.

That's just one guy from your club, and he definitely did race against AC guys. Given that it was so easy to find that one did, surely others did as well.

2) The AC wasn't a world removed. In the UK the Js and AC boats did many regular regattas each season.

In the US, the AC boats also did plenty of mainstream events. In 1914's Seawanhaka Regatta, for example, Vanitie and Resolute raced with 57 yachts down to Stars. Next year in the Larchmont regatta they raced with 83 boats, down to Dories and Stars. In the 1932 Larchmont Spring Regatta, the AC defence contenders raced in a regatta of 83 boats down to Stars and Atlantics.

That's just a few of the events where AC boats sailed normal regattas against normal boats of many sizes, down to Wee Scots and Stars. The AC was not a "world removed".
 
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