Grainger R42 - 12.8mts Performance Cruiser Trimaran
- Thread starter Meat Wad
- Start date
Floating Duck
Member
I absolutely love this thing. Exactly what I want to go do a racing circuit around the world.
Except the issue of, you know... money.
If you ever decide to sell it for $100 please reach back out...
Except the issue of, you know... money.
If you ever decide to sell it for $100 please reach back out...
eastern motors
Anarchist
- 736
- 154
Which rudder stock snapped? Does it have 3 rudders?
The float rudder linkages do look suspect...lots of articulated and moving parts, the rudder spanner looks too slender?.
Can’t be a good feel or response on the float tillers either?
boardhead
Anarchist
So did it snap on an impact or overload?
Pretty low mileage for a major component fail - rest of the story?
Pretty low mileage for a major component fail - rest of the story?
Wess
Super Anarchist
That shot is a beauty! And damn that is a flat cut for a chute. Is that designed to be a reacher or are you using that as a runner for downwind VMG sailing?
Mundt is right, looks like a code zero, which rates as a spinnaker under OMR. Venom on the OMR website is rated with a spinnaker, no screecher, but the rating shown must be suspect anyhow. Since when does a top of the line 42 ft Grainger tri rate less than a 24ft Diam tri?
http://www.mycq.org.au/omr/omr-preamble Sections 12 and 13.
http://www.mycq.org.au/documents/omr/omr.xls
Venom 6th up from the bottom, Wilparina 3, a Diam, 3rd up from the bottom.
Venom: 0.944, Wilparina 3: O.983 and Carbon Credit (F31SRCX): 1.030!
Hard to believe it is all to do with the weight: 3775kg, 597kg and 1583kg respectively.
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She is a beautiful boat and a credit to Tony Grainger and Jamie Morris the builder.
This is the Hounds Code Zero, meant to be flown off the inner point on the bowsprit, at the time of this photo the boat was still missing two sails from the inventory, the Screecher off the same hoist and inner tack point would have been the sail for this hot angle.
Attached is the design of the sail in this image, off the correct tack point the foot is not so tight. it can be used through the whole wind range, sail suits 55-90 AWA, so shy reeching in the light right through to being the sail for VMG runnning angles in 22- 30 knots. This sail measures as a Screecher in OMR.
The boat now has a new sail we named the MHA3 which is also measured as a Screecher on OMR for 65- 110 degrees AWA, and to be used from 0-22 knots true.
Quite similar sails by design as the boat always pulls the apparent forward of the beam, but different areas and fabric engineering.
The Zero is a tight luff bottom up furling sail, and the A3 eases the tack up to set the slightly soft luff and you tack down tight to top down furl with the cable in the luff.
The Screecher is yet to be done for the boat and would complete the sail wardbrobe.
The MH A3 was added into the OMR spreadsheet under spinnaker and throwing the numbers out, attached is the correct OMR with the sail added into the screecher section and no spinnaker. I think the boat will sail to this rating quite competitively offshore.
Just remember the crew weights are not added into the spreadsheet until an event, so the likes of a Diam 24 rating drops significantly when you insert the crew weight.
So you need to add in crew weights to compare properly.
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Wess
Super Anarchist
PIL66 - XL2
Super Anarchist
So the A3 is a top down furl....? The cable I guess spins inside the luff tape..? As opposed to the older version where the cable is always tight and the luff of the sail is longer than the cable...? If so is this version having less problems with furling than external cable...? This also means a little less sail area as the luff is shorter than it would be an external cable with A3. (When sailing the tack is 0.5-1m higher off the prodder when sailing deep...? ) I would like to know more
Wess
Super Anarchist
LOL, I was thinking of the same questions for @Lowgroove if its not imposing. I was guessing (?) that its a top down with an internal cable and the theoretic lost SA compared to an external cable not an issue if the boat is so fast that even VMG running the apparent is forward of 90.
But in the statement "A3 eases the tack up to set the slightly soft luff and you tack down tight to top down furl with the cable in the luff" I was lost or not following how the tack was being eased to soften the luff? Is the whole bottom of the furler is eased along with it and how does that work in lighter air?
No criticism intended or implied. I am curious to learn more. Cool boat and program.
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Pil and Wess,
Everything is a sliding scale with fast boats and around this size handling issues start to become very important.
The Mid Girth of well designed sails is a great way to place them along the sliding scale of Apparent wind angles and suitable handling systems.
Pil, when you say the "old external system" it is not old it is just what is required for a sail that has a mid-girth of 85-100% and therefore a soft luff, forward luff projection and can only be dropped by hand, with a snuffer or a external cable top down system. Venom would turn that sail into a flag with apparent wind, or it would be restricted to sailing so deep and slow to stop the apparent from collapsing a big deep sail, area is not everything.
So most Farriers and Corsairs and most Grainger's, Dragonflies and so on are at a point along the sliding scale of speed and apparent wind angles that they require a soft luff spinnaker for light to medium wind VMG running, with a mid girth between 85-95% and a generally flatter cut than a mono sail, but almost all of these boats if choosing to furl that kite would only be able to use a top down furling system but it would need to be an external cable. If any of these boats had a sail similar to Venoms MH A3 with a mid girth of 60-75% then they could have a sail (but not achieve the best downwind VMG as not fats eough)with a luff length that is slightly longer than the straight line (with the furler and some tack ease space reduced) and ease the tack or halyard to set that luff as a soft luff sail making it more versatile and potentially giving a mode where more depth can be achieved, it is only just a soft luff sail. In that case the top down system can have the cable internally in the luff tape, the head is lashed tight to the head thimble and the tack is not floating away from the top down adapter but on a short strop. The adapter then spins the cable only leaving the tack of the sail to sit in place whilst the rope up the luff tape spins furling the sail from the top. So you tack down hard to make the cable go tight when you need to furl or unfurl, it may be 150-300mm between sailing and furling mode.
A tight luff sail like a Screecher that has a 50% mid-girth and is better as a bottom up furling sail so you don't need to spin the furler as many time to get the sail away and is more efficient.
If you go further along the speed scale than Venom for boats that sail their VMG downwind angles with narrower AWA you start to come to boats with quite triangular VMG running sails, like Multi 50, Extreme 40, M32, TF10, many of these boats biggest running sails have mid girths of just 50-65%, they are mostly therefore running a bottom up system, but we are starting to see Sailmaking design and construction advancements that are making load sharing sails, Helix is the North Sails option that can have a slightly soft luff set with narrow girths and flat shapes but still be on a top down system with an internal cable or additional structure with heavily reduced cable sizing. This is not "Cabless" but is kind of half way there and makes an awesome sail for very fast boats which tack up and down make a significant different to the set shape and versatility of sailing angles.
The MHA3 sails on the previous Volvo 65's where used as their biggest most powerful VMG running sail and would have had a Mid-Girth of around 65%, these sail are not dissimilar in design shape to the Zero and MH A3 aboard Venom and really paved the way for us to get the trickle down into boats at the everyday level.
https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2017/11/sail-profile-vo65-a3
Sorry to turn this into an advert but this link explains the approach quite well, this is the cruising version of this type of sail in it's cruising form, but the basics are very similar to Venoms downwind sails and because Venom is quite fast it really is the best VMG option for a wind range of 0-25 knots from the one sail.
https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/02/cruising-sail-the-helix-furling-gennaker
Wess, when we say tack up or down we are talking the 2:1 or 3:1 system below the furler, most of these boats run locks up top and a tack system down the bottom.
Venom does not have a lock up top on the MH, but does on the fractional but for both sails to work correctly adjusting the tack up and down is critical.
Does that make sense boys?
The old put a bigger fatter kite on it simply is not the way it works on fast boats.
These sails are not very OMR friendly either, big areas with a MG under 75% rates terribly but makes a great sail that suits the boats performance which is the owners preference.
Everything is a sliding scale with fast boats and around this size handling issues start to become very important.
The Mid Girth of well designed sails is a great way to place them along the sliding scale of Apparent wind angles and suitable handling systems.
Pil, when you say the "old external system" it is not old it is just what is required for a sail that has a mid-girth of 85-100% and therefore a soft luff, forward luff projection and can only be dropped by hand, with a snuffer or a external cable top down system. Venom would turn that sail into a flag with apparent wind, or it would be restricted to sailing so deep and slow to stop the apparent from collapsing a big deep sail, area is not everything.
So most Farriers and Corsairs and most Grainger's, Dragonflies and so on are at a point along the sliding scale of speed and apparent wind angles that they require a soft luff spinnaker for light to medium wind VMG running, with a mid girth between 85-95% and a generally flatter cut than a mono sail, but almost all of these boats if choosing to furl that kite would only be able to use a top down furling system but it would need to be an external cable. If any of these boats had a sail similar to Venoms MH A3 with a mid girth of 60-75% then they could have a sail (but not achieve the best downwind VMG as not fats eough)with a luff length that is slightly longer than the straight line (with the furler and some tack ease space reduced) and ease the tack or halyard to set that luff as a soft luff sail making it more versatile and potentially giving a mode where more depth can be achieved, it is only just a soft luff sail. In that case the top down system can have the cable internally in the luff tape, the head is lashed tight to the head thimble and the tack is not floating away from the top down adapter but on a short strop. The adapter then spins the cable only leaving the tack of the sail to sit in place whilst the rope up the luff tape spins furling the sail from the top. So you tack down hard to make the cable go tight when you need to furl or unfurl, it may be 150-300mm between sailing and furling mode.
A tight luff sail like a Screecher that has a 50% mid-girth and is better as a bottom up furling sail so you don't need to spin the furler as many time to get the sail away and is more efficient.
If you go further along the speed scale than Venom for boats that sail their VMG downwind angles with narrower AWA you start to come to boats with quite triangular VMG running sails, like Multi 50, Extreme 40, M32, TF10, many of these boats biggest running sails have mid girths of just 50-65%, they are mostly therefore running a bottom up system, but we are starting to see Sailmaking design and construction advancements that are making load sharing sails, Helix is the North Sails option that can have a slightly soft luff set with narrow girths and flat shapes but still be on a top down system with an internal cable or additional structure with heavily reduced cable sizing. This is not "Cabless" but is kind of half way there and makes an awesome sail for very fast boats which tack up and down make a significant different to the set shape and versatility of sailing angles.
The MHA3 sails on the previous Volvo 65's where used as their biggest most powerful VMG running sail and would have had a Mid-Girth of around 65%, these sail are not dissimilar in design shape to the Zero and MH A3 aboard Venom and really paved the way for us to get the trickle down into boats at the everyday level.
https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2017/11/sail-profile-vo65-a3
Sorry to turn this into an advert but this link explains the approach quite well, this is the cruising version of this type of sail in it's cruising form, but the basics are very similar to Venoms downwind sails and because Venom is quite fast it really is the best VMG option for a wind range of 0-25 knots from the one sail.
https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/02/cruising-sail-the-helix-furling-gennaker
Wess, when we say tack up or down we are talking the 2:1 or 3:1 system below the furler, most of these boats run locks up top and a tack system down the bottom.
Venom does not have a lock up top on the MH, but does on the fractional but for both sails to work correctly adjusting the tack up and down is critical.
Does that make sense boys?
The old put a bigger fatter kite on it simply is not the way it works on fast boats.
These sails are not very OMR friendly either, big areas with a MG under 75% rates terribly but makes a great sail that suits the boats performance which is the owners preference.
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Wess
Super Anarchist
Thanks @Lowgroove. Most appreciated and helpful. Also just calling our @PIL66 - XL2 in cases he otherwise misses your great response.
What are you using as a light air VMG runner and what gybing angles do you see (if you can share)?
What are you using as a light air VMG runner and what gybing angles do you see (if you can share)?
PIL66 - XL2
Super Anarchist
@Lowgroove Great response.... I planned go mostly away from kites as well but this year we had many days of 5-15 knots and my courses are shorter so i have used the kite quite a bit so I had neil (Barracouta) install a luff / foot zips so we pack it and launch from the bag.... Too many problems with the top down and i run 2 other screechers on the prodder so it became a maze of furlers and lines
Thanks again
Thanks again
bushsailor
Anarchist
Thanks for the info Lowgroove,
I have come to the same conclusion except we have pushed our new sail out to 75.01% because of the omr rule.
I have a furler that can either do bottom up or top down. Am going to try and do bottom up first as I dislike the super tight furl in the top of the sail with top down.
We will be running the sail tack up about500mm and will crank it down to furl.
That helix sounds like the go ...if only I had bought bitcoin 5 years ago.
I have come to the same conclusion except we have pushed our new sail out to 75.01% because of the omr rule.
I have a furler that can either do bottom up or top down. Am going to try and do bottom up first as I dislike the super tight furl in the top of the sail with top down.
We will be running the sail tack up about500mm and will crank it down to furl.
That helix sounds like the go ...if only I had bought bitcoin 5 years ago.
MultiThom
Super Anarchist
Lowgroove has said, "So most Farriers and Corsairs and most Grainger's, Dragonflies and so on are at a point along the sliding scale of speed and apparent wind angles that they require a soft luff spinnaker for light to medium wind VMG running, with a mid girth between 85-95% and a generally flatter cut than a mono sail, but almost all of these boats if choosing to furl that kite would only be able to use a top down furling system but it would need to be an external cable."
I have been experimenting with a external cable with a bottom up furler on my boat. It works very well (but my luff is only 30 feet). Just wanted to suggest another option since (in my experience) top down furling has its own issues with back furls and numerous turns of the furler before the furling starts from the top.
I have been experimenting with a external cable with a bottom up furler on my boat. It works very well (but my luff is only 30 feet). Just wanted to suggest another option since (in my experience) top down furling has its own issues with back furls and numerous turns of the furler before the furling starts from the top.
ProaSailor
dreaming my life away...
That pic shows extreme (45 degrees?) flare on the main hull that I hadn't noticed or forgotten about, but a thread review shows it's been there all along. I wonder how that behaves in swell where sudden, massive changes in displacement could result from each passing wave?
