Grainger R42 - 12.8mts Performance Cruiser Trimaran

[PIL66 - XL2]

The sail configuration - we have selftacking jib - and that is very handy at times. I see also the Shutt39 has that - shorthanded or touring its a very good solution. I see the well designes and fast Danish  Black Marlin has that too - but then it has two roller-sail on the sprit - and it seems that the smallest is a selftacking jib too - bigger than the one at the forestay - anyone seen this before? 

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I had a self tacking Jib on 66 (Cynaphobe) and not on XL2. I prefer the it be NOT be self tacking. I sail mainly in the ocean with swell and rely heavily on backing the jib to tack.
i am pondering my future and one question I have is whether I would go for 1 - furling jib    2 - Battened jib with a reef  or  3 - Battened jib + a smaller blade for the breezy days.....Obviously the battened jib with reef is the cheapest.....

 

[Indian Chief]

Hey Pil, with the small size of your jib, i'd be going furling with vertical battens as i have on TG. It's easy on the crew, fast put away and simple. You'd be hard pressed to ever have to reef your jib, surely its good upwind up to 30+ knots? Unlike monos, reef your main heaps first. We will sail TG with two reefs and full jib in 35 knots then i might put a few rolls in the jib furler but the shape is then crap (which my sailmaker is working on a possible solution) however it happens so in frequent it doesn't matter the boat still goes upwind like a steam train just not as high on the breeze. If it got real nasty i'd have to take the jib off the foil and go to a storm jib or a blade i have but never use. The nice thing about catamarans is we have plenty of deck space to do such sail changes in shit conditions. 

I'm not so sure about the solution on the R42 as when using the jib the staysail will be annoying when racing and tacking in short course racing which will be more often than not. Unless i'm not understanding that the staysail stay/sail is removable to allow jib to tack easily?

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

Hey Pil, with the small size of your jib, i'd be going furling with vertical battens as i have on TG. It's easy on the crew, fast put away and simple. You'd be hard pressed to ever have to reef your jib, surely its good upwind up to 30+ knots? Unlike monos, reef your main heaps first. We will sail TG with two reefs and full jib in 35 knots then i might put a few rolls in the jib furler but the shape is then crap (which my sailmaker is working on a possible solution) however it happens so in frequent it doesn't matter the boat still goes upwind like a steam train just not as high on the breeze. If it got real nasty i'd have to take the jib off the foil and go to a storm jib or a blade i have but never use. The nice thing about catamarans is we have plenty of deck space to do such sail changes in shit conditions. 

I'm not so sure about the solution on the R42 as when using the jib the staysail will be annoying when racing and tacking in short course racing which will be more often than not. Unless i'm not understanding that the staysail stay/sail is removable to allow jib to tack easily?

Yep ... makes sense 

I was wondering about the R42 Staysail arrangement

 

[boardhead]

We used to carry a conservative area full battened jib - which still had the boat powered up in 12  - 15 knots but there was too big a gap from the furling windward reacher so had a bigger, reefing, horizontal batten hank on sail made and for our purposes it woks like a charm.

I also really don't like self tacking jibs. For me it's about not being able to stop the boat. It's very easy to just throw the helm down, put the boats head through the wind without touching the sheets then dump the traveller and the boat just sits like a duck with the helm to lee.  

Mike McMullen in his excellent book on all things multihull recounts recovering his crew after he was swept off the fore deck of Three Cheers using this maneuver. 

 

[SeaGul]

I had a self tacking Jib on 66 (Cynaphobe) and not on XL2. I prefer the it be NOT be self tacking. I sail mainly in the ocean with swell and rely heavily on backing the jib to tack.
..

Yes on a cat that make sense - but most tris tack easy....

 

[SeaGul]

We used to carry a conservative area full battened jib - which still had the boat powered up in 12  - 15 knots but there was too big a gap from the furling windward reacher so had a bigger, reefing, horizontal batten hank on sail made and for our purposes it woks like a charm.

I also really don't like self tacking jibs. For me it's about not being able to stop the boat. It's very easy to just throw the helm down, put the boats head through the wind without touching the sheets then dump the traveller and the boat just sits like a duck with the helm to lee.  

Mike McMullen in his excellent book on all things multihull recounts recovering his crew after he was swept off the fore deck of Three Cheers using this maneuver. 

Did that on my IF long time ago - sailing alone - going to the crapper.....   But never tried with the trimaran - one could have a traveller arrangement on the self-tacking jib...    But the Back Marlin with the self tacking bigger jib - that a new one? One problem with a genua on the forestay is to sheet it properly in without getting problem with the shrouds - will no be a problem with that arrangement.

 

[Lowgroove]

Hi Boys

Yep ... makes sense 

I was wondering about the R42 Staysail arrangement

Hi Boys,

Since the boat is a racer and cruiser it will have to modes.

The Jib is way bigger than both of your boats have so will need to change down at some point in the wind range.

The Staysail is on a Facnor internal Halyard lock, it has its own stay in the luff, vertical battens and also a UV strip, so this sail can be lowered in race mode or kept hoisted in cruise mode for easy gear changes.

This halyard/lock/ base 3:1 arrangement then also accepts the furling Storm Jib, so you can switch these two sails out, the Jib must stay hoisted as it zips onto the forestay as it has an 8T Profurl Structural furler on the forestay.

The Jib also has vertical battens and a UV strip and will be likely used up to 20 knots true in race mode, maybe 25 knots but time will tell.

The Upwind Screecher will then be out in front of all that, no UV to be dropped when not in use just like you boys do.

 

[boardhead]

So on my St Francis we have a vertical batten furling/reefing sail on a Facnor tape drive furler with the heavier, old school alloy foil over 1x19 st.st - which I don't trust - the shrouds, runners and checkstays are spectra. Obviously a barge compared to Skateaway but you still gotta try - right. The jib is not self tacking, I run two sheets each side with four strong points so the sail can be trimmed properly way inboard and out. The sail is actually oversized such that it is only fully deployed cracked off and gets rolled up a couple turns hard on the wind. The battens are long and the sail has a decent amount of roach. Playing with a production boat there are lots of constraints and compromises but perseverance pays off. What with recycling old battened headsails off Skateaway, sailmakers screw ups from other boats, the original genoa crap and the Mk1 and Mk2 vertical batten sails the current sail is the sixth in the "making a barge go fast" program. This last season we were very close, quicker at time, upwind in 25 apparent and chop than a well sailed and rigged Dragonfly 1000 - amazing what great sails and attention to detail can do!

The windward reacher on this boat is stretchy, 2.2 oz nylon then the jib takes over up to 50 knots. Having those vertical battens creates defined reef points where each batten at the forestay really helps out the concentrated leech loading, on this platform those loads are up there.

We have a storm jib on hanks for back up.

 

[Vincent DePillis]

The Upwind Screecher will then be out in front of all that, no UV to be dropped when not in use just like you boys do.

Doyle has been working on a "cableless" style of code zero/screecher.  I am very interested in figuring seeing if this could help with my F31 upwind in light air. Did you look into that at all?

 

[newbiesporty]

Doyle has been working on a "cableless" style of code zero/screecher.  I am very interested in figuring seeing if this could help with my F31 upwind in light air. Did you look into that at all?

Hi Vincent,

Ill let Low Groove get his teeth into answering this however I will say that all of the big companies have their own versions of this system now.

The term "cableless" is a bit of a misnomer and the system has a by product of not being suitable for a large percentage of applications.

Ill let the full-time sailmaker take that further... I'm just the part time guy

 

[Vincent DePillis]

Hi Vincent,

IThe term "cableless" is a bit of a misnomer and the system has a by product of not being suitable for a large percentage of applications.

Do tell.

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

Doyle has been working on a "cableless" style of code zero/screecher.  I am very interested in figuring seeing if this could help with my F31 upwind in light air. Did you look into that at all?

The Doyle system does work well and I'm sure will get better.  Others are following.

Comanche swapped their North J1 (hank on) to a Doyle J1 cable less system and they are so far very happy with the way it works. Deploying and retrieval is easier, It folds to a smaller package making it easier to store and move but the real advantage is the weight saving and the speed at which the crew can change gears.... The 100's foredeck sails are big things for humans to lug around.. 

 

[Indian Chief]

Hi Boys

Hi Boys,

Since the boat is a racer and cruiser it will have to modes.

The Jib is way bigger than both of your boats have so will need to change down at some point in the wind range.

The Staysail is on a Facnor internal Halyard lock, it has its own stay in the luff, vertical battens and also a UV strip, so this sail can be lowered in race mode or kept hoisted in cruise mode for easy gear changes.

This halyard/lock/ base 3:1 arrangement then also accepts the furling Storm Jib, so you can switch these two sails out, the Jib must stay hoisted as it zips onto the forestay as it has an 8T Profurl Structural furler on the forestay.

The Jib also has vertical battens and a UV strip and will be likely used up to 20 knots true in race mode, maybe 25 knots but time will tell.

The Upwind Screecher will then be out in front of all that, no UV to be dropped when not in use just like you boys do.

Seems like a cool solution so long as the crews make the hard work changes setting up the staysail as the conditions change. I love my new Facnor internal lock on my screecher. TG is a different boat since the lock went in. Just don't feel that ugly load trying to break the boat now when the upwind screecher is up. We've had no issues with the lock at all. To the point now I'm thinking of putting one on the main next, but still wary of the SCENARIO of building breeze, offshore late at night and the lock won't let go because it hasn't been cleaned/serviced and ceases up....

Do you think that's a fair concern Lowgroove? 

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

Seems like a cool solution so long as the crews make the hard work changes setting up the staysail as the conditions change. I love my new Facnor internal lock on my screecher. TG is a different boat since the lock went in. Just don't feel that ugly load trying to break the boat now when the upwind screecher is up. We've had no issues with the lock at all. To the point now I'm thinking of putting one on the main next, but still wary of the SCENARIO of building breeze, offshore late at night and the lock won't let go because it hasn't been cleaned/serviced and ceases up....

Do you think that's a fair concern Lowgroove? 

I've been using mainsail locks for 20 years most weeks on the monos and can only remember having one problem....From wear on the lock release line through age ..... it hasn't happened again so I'm a fan of them..

 If I had the money everything would be on locks.... but locks aint locks....
you get what you pay for.. ours have all been Harken

 

[nmanno]

I've been using mainsail locks for 20 years most weeks on the monos and can only remember having one problem....From wear on the lock release line through age ..... it hasn't happened again so I'm a fan of them..

 If I had the money everything would be on locks.... but locks aint locks....
you get what you pay for.. ours have all been Harken

Thanks for that, what mainsail locks do you use and recommend, the ones with trip line or the one that are self-releasing? Good jib and screecher locks are plentiful and I use Karver ones but mainsail ones are more difficult to find in my view.

 

[Lowgroove]

Doyle has been working on a "cableless" style of code zero/screecher.  I am very interested in figuring seeing if this could help with my F31 upwind in light air. Did you look into that at all?

This is a very interesting development happening and all the majour brands have Multiple versions of this New/Old technology depending on the sails apparent wind sailing angle. There is loads of propaganda around and I am wary of saying too much here, what I will say is just my take, not a company policy or view and is quite possibly not correct or soon will be made inncorrect by the continual development happening.

The use of the word Cabless seems flat out wrong to me, so far even if they were originally test sailed with no cable all rhe sails I have seen have ended up with luff cables, all be it smaller, but still cables, being called by ither names. Holding a mast up by a sail only is an amazing feat but does not interest me much. Having to keep your expensive forestay still there in front of the sail taking some of the load and therefore allowing sag in a sail is also not something I am interested in (unless looking for more entry depth)and we are seeing this as a current solution being used for the J1 on the Big boat Pil mentioned I believe. combined tack load is therefore actually no less in this example for the J1, so what is the advantage for an upwind sail?

This technology is mainly seeing gains in the area between a Code Zero and a A3, when the mid girth over 75% is required, these sails struggle to get a smooth leech exit and meet the required girth (this is why non rated boats like Imoca or Volvo have had such great reaching sails designed without girth restrictions effecting the design) by putting more structure in the luff and load sharing with a much smaller cable the sails luff can project forward (no longer a taught straight line)allowing for the leech girth to come forward and allowing flatter and straighter exits that make very fast sails. There can be advantages in the luff entry shape also, alowing a finer entry and sailing closer to the wind can be the result essentially gaining a wider range of use than a traditiinal tight cable sail. All sounds great in theory and with a top pro crew on a boat like s Maxi 72, but the sails require more trimming and faster reactions and trim and helm, when the new "Cabless" luff then collapses on a sail sailing at between 50-80 degrees apparent it is going to probably flog like a bitch until fully sheeted back on to set the luff and it will feel like your rig is going to step off the side of the boat. Also bear in mind dropping down cable size is great news for a TP owner taking that stay from a 6k item to a 3k spend (even though he already owns the 6k cable from his previous sail)but in Multihull land where most boats use lower end Torque cables that cost 1-1.5k the new "baby" cable plus the extra cost in the new luff construction required to share the load makes this technology pretty expensive. It all sounds great and I will sell some of these sails but at this point they are getting sorted at the pro level sailing, more developments to come and I don't think they are for every application.

I do look forward to seeing what can be achieved with these sails in the coming years.

 

[Lowgroove]

Seems like a cool solution so long as the crews make the hard work changes setting up the staysail as the conditions change. I love my new Facnor internal lock on my screecher. TG is a different boat since the lock went in. Just don't feel that ugly load trying to break the boat now when the upwind screecher is up. We've had no issues with the lock at all. To the point now I'm thinking of putting one on the main next, but still wary of the SCENARIO of building breeze, offshore late at night and the lock won't let go because it hasn't been cleaned/serviced and ceases up....

Do you think that's a fair concern Lowgroove? 

Chief I am sure your rig is thanking you every time you hoist the sail.

The Main lock options are a bit harder, most have slots in the track and trip lines, I believe there is an Antal head car and track inserts that could work for your boat, but I remember a couple of boats in SA having ongoing issues with them.

Any riggers out there that can suggest the range of Main Halyard lock options? The reefs complicate it as needs to lock at different heights unlike all the front sails. 

 

[gurok]

Chief I am sure your rig is thanking you every time you hoist the sail.

The Main lock options are a bit harder, most have slots in the track and trip lines, I believe there is an Antal head car and track inserts that could work for your boat, but I remember a couple of boats in SA having ongoing issues with them.

Any riggers out there that can suggest the range of Main Halyard lock options? The reefs complicate it as needs to lock at different heights unlike all the front sails. 

On the TR36 I have hooks at deck level on the mast for all sails including the mainsail. The halyards are all fixed length. Reefs in main are handled by a mainsail halyard comprising fixed length sections, each with its own loop pertaining to a reef point and drop/hoist length. To reef the main I ease the downhaul/cunningham, unhook the mainsail halyard from its current hook and lower the halyard until I come across the next loop, hook on and then apply downhaul. My mainsail halyard has colour coded sections, each pertains to the colour of the associated reefline. Minimal faffing and easy to sort when tired..

 

[EarthBM]

On the TR36 I have hooks at deck level on the mast for all sails including the mainsail. The halyards are all fixed length. Reefs in main are handled by a mainsail halyard comprising fixed length sections, each with its own loop pertaining to a reef point and drop/hoist length. To reef the main I ease the downhaul/cunningham, unhook the mainsail halyard from its current hook and lower the halyard until I come across the next loop, hook on and then apply downhaul. My mainsail halyard has colour coded sections, each pertains to the colour of the associated reefline. Minimal faffing and easy to sort when tired..

Do you have a picture of this main halyard with loops in action?

 

[gurok]

Do you have a picture of this main halyard with loops in action?

I shall walk to boat in morning and take some for you