Grounds for Redress? "Pin Boat" at a downwind start

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
The diagram below is from a start a few weeks back. I am looking for opinions based on the following:

1. The black pin boat was at least 500 feet from the pin and two boat lengths on the starting side of the line.

2. The black pin boat was not flying any flags or other markings that would identify it as an RC or other official boat

3. Other boats mis-took the boat for a tourist/photo boat and hailed them to stay out of the starting area

4. The wind was 16 to 20 knots

5. Contact between the black power boat and the blue sailboat occurred with less than 30 seconds before a start

The blue boat, after tacking to avoid a Starboard tack boat, headed to the line, took a puff and rounded up into the black twin outboard powerboat. There was some damage to one of the outboard motors, but no one was injured and the Blue Sailboat had no damage.

Questions:

1. What rules did Blue Break if any?

2. If the Black Boat was an RC Pin Boat without any markings, is Blue entitled to any redress for the time spent making sure Black was OK?

It is my contention that Black, being a highly maneuverable powerboat had a duty to keep clear of the sailboat and that the Sailboat had no way of knowing the blackboat was an RC pin boat, since it's location was wrong to call anyone over early and there were no markings or flags. Once the Blue boat was sure no assistance was required, Blue continued on the race course. The RC protested blue under rule 14 and Blue asked for redress under rule 62? Blue was DSQ'ed.

I am interested in other's take on this.

pinboat.jpg

pinboat.jpg

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
It was unclear if they were or were not. Other boats passing could not tell if they were anchored or not (Going by at 8 knts, keeping the boat in control with 2-4 foot seas, checking to see if a power boat is anchored is not a high priority...)

How would it's anchoring status change the rules/outcomes?

 

Rum Runner

Rum Runner
5,302
310
Illinois
If the black boat was not moving then it was an obstruction.

If it was not flying a flag is had to be treated as any other type of boat which may cross a race course.

If damage was caused to either boat then the blue boat should probably be DSQ.

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
I agree that regardless it was an obstruction, but there were no other racing boats around so rules 19/20 don't apply. Regardless if the boat was moving or not, doesn't the black boat have a requirement under right of way (Colregs?) to keep clear?

 

jww

Member
359
7
lake erie,
It was unclear if they were or were not. Other boats passing could not tell if they were anchored or not (Going by at 8 knts, keeping the boat in control with 2-4 foot seas, checking to see if a power boat is anchored is not a high priority...)

How would it's anchoring status change the rules/outcomes?
Not a high priority?It certainly should have been if in the starting area and then someone hits it!
 
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ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
It was unclear if they were or were not. Other boats passing could not tell if they were anchored or not (Going by at 8 knts, keeping the boat in control with 2-4 foot seas, checking to see if a power boat is anchored is not a high priority...)

How would it's anchoring status change the rules/outcomes?
Not a high priority?It certainly should be.
Keeping clear of the boat was a high priority, when we went around her - not seeing if she was making way, it was it was very slow. We kept well clear since they were in an odd place for any powerboat to be, other than a stupid tourist/sightseeing boat, which is what we took them for.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,204
9,586
Eastern NC
Ummm... so much is wrong here. A power boat not keeping clear, and RC vessel not identified as such, an RC vessel in the wrong place...

Rule 14 applies between boats that are racing. Was the power boat racing?

Blue was obligated to follow the IRPCAS and avoid a collision, the rules do not allow for "rounding up" or any other type of not being able to keep your boat under control. Sounds like the main trimmer needs a good boot in the right spot. If it was definitely Blue's action which caused the collision (sounds like it) and there was damage then yes she should get a DSQ.

If no damage then with everything else wrong with this picture, then I'd be inclined to politely ask the RC a little wtf R U doon?

FB- Doug

 

5Degrees

Member
463
1
Chicago
The Black boat was anchored at the time and under 7 meters LOA if that helps out at all.

This is a port to port race and the " I " Flag was in effect at this time.

The Black boat was the RC pin boat - no RC flag was flying on the pin boat.

Now that you have the facts -

 

mikeys

New member
39
0
Black RC is not part of the line, just like a crash boat hanging around? I see no foul between blue competitor and anchored RC boat, although blue probably responsible for Black's damages.

 

equivocator

Anarchist
677
1
OK, as I understand the situation, the Pin Boat (PB) was not flagged or otherwise identifiable as an RC vessel, and was stationary about 500 ft from the starting mark at the time of the incident, which occurred shortly after you tacked onto starboard. As you approached, you were on a course to avoid the PB, until you were hit by a puff and rounded up into it. The incident occurred about 30 seconds before the starting signal for your class. All this took place "a few weeks ago."

First, under the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS, the relationship between a boat not racing and any boat in a race is defined by the government right-of-way rules. See the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS. Therefore, unless the PB was a mark, the incident is governed by the IRPCAS or Government Right-of-Way Rules (e.g., Inland Rules). Note that under the definition of mark, the RC signal boat is an exception, and is a mark of the course if the starting line extends from it. But that does not apply to the Pin Boat in this case. That leaves the possibility that the "Pin Boat" was described in the Sailing Instructions as a mark. However, Rule 86.1.b. forbids the SI's from changing a definition, so any such provision is invalid, b/c the PB does not meet the definition of mark.

That brings us to the issue of whether or not you should have been disqualified. Rule 64.1.a states that when the protest committee decides that a boat broke a rule, it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. The definition of rule includes a list of applicable regulations, but it does not include the IRPCAS or Inland Rules. So I think it is arguable that you can not be DSQ for breaking IRPCAS or Inland Rules in an incident with a boat that is not racing.

As to the collision itself, you described the Pin Boat as stationary at the time of the collision. In addition, b/c it was engaged in observing the line, it may also have been limited in its ability to maneuver. The PB was keeping clear b/c you were steering a course to keep clear of it until the puff hit, which was immediately before the collision. For those reasons, I think you are probably at fault in the collision.Your last minute alteration of course almost certainly broke IRPCAS Rule 8.f.iii. or Inland Rule 17 and/or 18.

If the impending starting signal was not for your class, the Preamble to Part 2 is governing, and you cannot be DSQ unless you broke Rule 23.

Since you have already been DSQ, your best avenue to explore the issue is usually by means of an appeal. However, under Rule F2.1, in order to appeal, it is necessary to submit a written decision from the protest committee. Under Rule 65.2, you have 7 days after the date of the decision to request a written decision. Because the incident occurred "a few of weeks ago," it may not be possible for you to get a written decision. Another possible avenue would have been to request the PC to reopen the hearing under Rule 66. However, the time limit for that is 24 hours from the time the decision was announced.

I think you are SOL. Now, explain why you were 500 feet from the starting mark 30 seconds before your starting signal.

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
My take:

If the pin boat was at anchor, then IRPCAS doesn't apply, except maybe Blue breaks rules 7/8. But Blue clearly at fault from a liability perspective.

If the pin boat was not racing and was not a mark of the course, then RRS does not apply, and there should be no protest or penalty to Blue.

Redress under 62.1( b ) isn't applicable since the pin boat (at anchor) was not required to keep clear of Blue (not racing, and not a stand-on vessel under IRPCAS)

If Blue was "giving help...in compliance with rule 1.1" (Helping Those in Danger) to the pin boat then they may be entitled to redress under 62.1 ( c ), but unless there was damage and injury I don't think the request would go very far.

 
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Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,204
9,586
Eastern NC
...

If the pin boat was at anchor, then IRPCAS doesn't apply, except maybe Blue breaks rules 7/8.
???

Being at anchor makes the anchored vessel Not Under Command, doesn't negate IRPCAS

The Right-of-Way Rules (or Rules of the ROad if you prefer) -must- always apply to all vessels or there's no point in having them in the first place.

FB- Doug

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,837
609
Evanston
...

If the pin boat was at anchor, then IRPCAS doesn't apply, except maybe Blue breaks rules 7/8.
???

Being at anchor makes the anchored vessel Not Under Command, doesn't negate IRPCAS

The Right-of-Way Rules (or Rules of the ROad if you prefer) -must- always apply to all vessels or there's no point in having them in the first place.

FB- Doug
absolutely

anchored boat is definitley part of IPRCAS

one question, does breaking IRPCAS break a rule, the only part of the definition of 'rule' which could possibly apply is

(g) any other documents that govern the event.

and I'm not sure that that covers IPRCAS, unless they are called for in the SI's (e..g. between the hours of 10pm and 6am the IRPCAS will apply) or similar.

 
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Brass

Super Anarchist
2,759
171
The diagram below is from a start a few weeks back. I am looking for opinions based on the following:

1. The black pin boat was at least 500 feet from the pin and two boat lengths on the starting side of the line.

2. The black pin boat was not flying any flags or other markings that would identify it as an RC or other official boat

3. Other boats mis-took the boat for a tourist/photo boat and hailed them to stay out of the starting area

4. The wind was 16 to 20 knots

5. Contact between the black power boat and the blue sailboat occurred with less than 30 seconds before a start

The blue boat, after tacking to avoid a Starboard tack boat, headed to the line, took a puff and rounded up into the black twin outboard powerboat. There was some damage to one of the outboard motors, but no one was injured and the Blue Sailboat had no damage.

Questions:

1. What rules did Blue Break if any?

2. If the Black Boat was an RC Pin Boat without any markings, is Blue entitled to any redress for the time spent making sure Black was OK?

It is my contention that Black, being a highly maneuverable powerboat had a duty to keep clear of the sailboat and that the Sailboat had no way of knowing the blackboat was an RC pin boat, since it's location was wrong to call anyone over early and there were no markings or flags. Once the Blue boat was sure no assistance was required, Blue continued on the race course. The RC protested blue under rule 14 and Blue asked for redress under rule 62? Blue was DSQ'ed.

I am interested in other's take on this.
The Black boat was anchored at the time and under 7 meters LOA if that helps out at all.

This is a port to port race and the " I " Flag was in effect at this time.

The Black boat was the RC pin boat - no RC flag was flying on the pin boat.

Now that you have the facts -
Preamble to RRS Part 2 When Boats Meet makes it clear that Part 2 rules apply only between boats as defined in the definitions that aren't definitions shown in RRS Introduction - Terminology, that are bound by the RRS (not just while racing, but, with less than 30 seconds before a start, Blue was racing in any case).

ISAF Q&A 2011-014 discusses at length the meaning of 'boat' in various contexts.

In this case between the boat racing and the motor boat, RRS part 2 does not apply and IRPCAS does.

Preamble to RRS Part 2 specifically provides for situations between boats bound by RRS and boats not bound by RRS, namely that boats bound by RRS shall comply with IRPCAS etc.

The obligation of a vessel underway to keep clear of a vessel at anchor, while not expressly stated in the IRPCAS, may be taken to be requiried by the ordinary practice of seamen referred to in IRPCAS Rule 2(a). A vessel underway which collides with a vessel at anchor is probably in breach of IRPCAS Rule 8(d) or 8(e).

In this case Blue has not complied with IRPCAS and thus has broken the rule constiuted by the Preamble to Part 2 (Definitions: Rule - Rule includes preambles).

In this scenario, the motor boat was at anchor, therefore not underway and not obliged to keep out of the way of sailing vessels by IRPCAS Rule 18( a ) (4), and thus the sailing vessel was not obliged to keep her course and speed under IRPCAS Rule 17.

If the motor boat had been underway and not at anchor, then she would have been obliged to keep out of the say of the sailing vessel under IRPCAS Rule 18 ( a ), but the sailing vessel, as the stand on vessel would have been obliged, under IRPCAS Rule 17 to keep her course and speed. In that case, Blue, in an unexpected round-up would certainly be in breach of IRPCAS Rule 17, while the motor boat was probably keeping clear and not breaking Rule 18( a ).

It is completely irrelevant whether the motor boat was flying any signals identifying her as a Race Committee vessel, or was designated as such in the Sailing Instructions, unless the SI also required boats to keep clear of Race Committee vessels.

Given that Blue broke a rule and was disqualified (and it's empty to argue that she didn't break rule 14 when whe broke the IRPCAS Rule and the Preamble), then she cannot be given redress, although ordinarily a boat standing by to give help to a person or vessel in danger (rule 1.1) may be given redress (rule 62.1( c )).

 
I dunno, if I hit an anchored pin boat I would think of it as pretty much the same as if I had hit an anchored RC boat. Not good but no DSQ and no redress either.

I'm always impressed by those who vounteer their boat for RC duty.

 

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