Grounds for Redress? "Pin Boat" at a downwind start

[fastyacht]

....

... I would argue that a breach of the IRPCAS as referenced by the preamble to Part 2 is subject to exoneration under rule 44.1. However, because there was "serious damage" in this case, exoneration is not available under 44.1(b ) - "her penalty shall be to retire." Since she didn't retire, the PC gave her a DSQ. Different rule, same result.

The preamble says one cannot violate IRPCAS and/or gov't regulations.

Rule 44 doesn't say anything about exoneration for infractions of non-racing rules against non-racing boats, therefor one cannot exonerate an IRPCAS violation by doing a 720. Serious damage or no.

I would suggest that hitting a non-racing boat during a race means you're done, go home now.

FB- Doug

Which is ironic when that non-racing boat is part of the race organization--considering that if it were a mark, it would not result in retiring...

 

[Brass]

[if the pin boat had been a mark of the course, this collision would have simply resulted in penalty turns

[Which is ironic when that non-racing boat is part of the race organization--considering that if it were a mark, it would not result in retiring...

Could you folk please explain to me why you think IRPCAS do not apply to a 'vessel', complying in every respect with the definition of 'vessel' in the IRPCAS, and which hasn't entered into an agreement such as is provided in RRS rule 3, just becasue a piece of paper written by a club, called Sailing Instructions, say that it is a 'mark'?

 

[Delta Blues]

Here is a copy, with the names redacted, of the protest findings...

I am interested in everyone's ideas on the findings... I found them interesting myself.

I'm amused that you hijacked your own thread.

 

[DA-WOODY]

Here is a copy, with the names redacted, of the protest findings...

I am interested in everyone's ideas on the findings... I found them interesting myself.

I'm amused that you hijacked your own thread.

and still No Tits ?

 

[morrisre]

Here is a copy, with the names redacted, of the protest findings...

I am interested in everyone's ideas on the findings... I found them interesting myself.

RRS22 doesn't apply as the rib is not a boat. Since they describe it as anchored 30ft above the line I doubt it's actually describer as such in the SIs. They clearly felt it was worth throwing the book at them though and with good reason.

 

[DA-WOODY]

Here is a copy, with the names redacted, of the protest findings...

I am interested in everyone's ideas on the findings... I found them interesting myself.

RRS22 doesn't apply as the rib is not a boat. Since they describe it as anchored 30ft above the line I doubt it's actually describer as such in the SIs. They clearly felt it was worth throwing the book at them though and with good reason.

and still No Tits ?

 

[morrisre]

at least one

 

[DA-WOODY]

at least one

Whip it

Whip It GOOD

didn't think so

 

[morrisre]

to easy. i'm gone

 

[Brass]

to easy. i'm gone

Was it something we said?

 

[ftbinc]

Not to beat a dead horse, but the preamble to part 2:

PART 2

WHEN BOATS MEET

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near

the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one

of these rules, except rule 23.1.

This would seem to me to suggest that anything after this paragraph in part 2 only "apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing." Clearly the motorboat was none of the above.

If this argument is rejected, As far as rules of the road (from the coast guard rules...)(e) A vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and ( B) of this Rule.

The motor boat was either a. anchored as claimed, b. not anchored. If anchored, not displaying the proper shape or lights to indicate she was anchored has the motor boat violating ColRegs "at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate" near the pin end at the start of a sailboat race? that is a normal place to expect other boats to be navigating. if they were under power, then they are the give way vessel and should have taken action to stay clear of the sailboat...so the DSQ for rule 22 falls as does the DSQ for violating the preamble.The DSQ for 44.1( B) falls since this is about how to take a penalty for breaking a rule, which so far, the sailboat has not done. That leaves the DSQ under 1.1 There were no Facts Found that the power boat or anyone on the boat was ever in danger. No signals were made, no Maydays on the radio (Instead there was a lot of yelling about protests, disqualifications etc coming from the powerboat) So with out Facts Found that the power boat or the people aboard were in danger, DSQ under this rule is improper.

I would contend that an appeal to US sailing, which must be based on the FACTS FOUND, would reverse the PC, and re-instate the sailboat.

This leaves the request for redress, based on the facts found on that request, an official race committee boat Anchored 30 feet to weather of the pin (Fact Found) would put the power boat squarely on the pre-start side of the line by 20 feet or so and 20 feet outside the starting line (it was a downwind start remember) If the presents of an ANCHORED, unmarked boat in the starting area does pose a disadvantage to all boats that sail near or around that boat. Not knowing the boat was anchored and would not move posed a disadvantage to the boats that sailed near her. I would suggest that redress should be granted, since this was a race committee vessel interfering with the start of a race.

(And other boats, in other sections that were called over early by this "Pin boat" would have been entitled to redress as well)

 

[familysailor]

According to the facts found:

• The black powerboat was anchored
  
• The blue boat did not notice it was anchored, or if it did came too close under the conditions
  
• The blue boat lost control and ran into the anchored boat causing considerable damage
  

Any other boats racing at that time had to see and avoid the anchored boat.

Unless the anchored boat was anchored in restricted area, it could have been a boat full of fishermen. The blue boat would still need to see and avoid hitting it.

Where I race permits are issued by the Coast Guard. With very few exceptions that does not give the racers or race committee exclusive use of the racing area. We often have commercial, charter and private vessels that anchor, drift, power and sail through our starting/finishing/racing area. We deal with it. It adds to the overall challenge of the race. Wave, smile and enjoy the day.

The blue boat fucked up. Luckily nobody was injured. Disaster was narrowly avoided.

Next time they might want to stand by, make sure the damaged boat gets safely back to their berth, apologize, officially retire from the race then buy some rum for the crew of the damaged boat that was, (by the way), volunteering to help run the race.

Edit: It's only a sailboat race

 

[ftbinc]

According to the facts found:

• The black powerboat was anchored
  
• The blue boat did not notice it was anchored, or if it did came too close under the conditions
  
• The blue boat lost control and ran into the anchored boat causing considerable damage
  

Any other boats racing at that time had to see and avoid the anchored boat.

Unless the anchored boat was anchored in restricted area, it could have been a boat full of fishermen. The blue boat would still need to see and avoid hitting it.

Edit: It's only a sailboat race

Agreed - it is only a sailboat race...

But based on the Facts Found, I don't see any RRS rules broken or grounds for DSQ'ing the sailboat. I agree, the Sailboat is most probably responsible financially for the damage to the motorboat, but that is for the insurance companies to work out. That being said - if the pin boat was truly anchored where the facts found said they were anchored, then they should share some of the liability for "playing in the busy street" it is not seamanship like to anchor in an area where a lot of traffic is to be expected.

As I understand it, the Sailboat was yelled at, cursed at, and threatened by the powerboat, who were clearly not injured, nor taking on water. Following them back in to the harbor 200 yards away might have had more tragic results...

On a side note, When I passed the "pin boat" less than a minute before the blue boat hit the pin boat, I was under the impression they were under power. I also hailed them to get out of the starting area because they were a hazard. Was I able to avoid them? Yes, However, if I had know they were race committee, I might have asked for redress since their presents in the starting area, on the pre-start side of the line, above the starting pin (It was a downwind start) put them right in the area boats are maneuvering for position to start - The most favored way to start this race, would have been starting as close to the pin as possible to get the clearest air. Because of their location, they made me 10-15 seconds late to the start and involved me in a Rule 10 protest (I was stbd and the protest committee DSQ'ed the port boat)

But as you say, it is only a sailboat race. I don't have a horse in this race, but have some sympathy for the sailboat, sailing in 15-20 knt breeze on a downwind start with 22 other 30-45 foot boats on the line trying to avoid other racing boats and a smallish powerboat that choose to be in the middle of the start - 20-50 feet on the course side of the line would have put them completely out of the traffic pattern. The signal boat or even the RC chairman, which was starting at the same time should have given pin boat a clue this was a bad place to be.

 

[familysailor]

Really---

Get a grip. It could have been a fishing boat, or a day marker. It was there; apparently for quite some time. DEAL with it. You can't blame an obstruction for a crappy start.

 

[TJSoCal]

From the PC proceedings it appears that in this situation there were at least a couple of legitimate grounds for DSQ under racing rules.

Better solution overall, it would seem, would be for any RC support boat to remain underway while performing their duties and observe their obligation under IRPCAS for remaining out of the way of sailing vessels under sail, unless the support boat is intended to mark (not just observe) an end of the starting line.

I don't think I'd want to anchor my nice powerboat "in 15-20 knt breeze on a downwind start with 22 other 30-45 foot boats on the line"

 

[phrfsux]

The IRPCAS/COLREGS issue has been beaten to death here, so I won't go into that. Just wanted to point out that if this was a "port to port race" (which I assume means a race that will take many hours, if not several days), then a few seconds at the start isn't going to matter. The smart thing to do on a start like that (especially a downwind start, double-especially in a lot of wind) is to be real conservative. Stay far away from other boats (anchored or not) and don't worry if you hit the line 30 seconds late. It won't matter.

What *will* ruin your whole day is being over overly, or some other random CF like described above.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Really---

Get a grip. It could have been a fishing boat, or a day marker. It was there; apparently for quite some time. DEAL with it. You can't blame an obstruction for a crappy start.

No but from the description, it sounds like you can blame a crappy helmsman and a mainsheet trimmer who doesn't know how to EASE

FB- Doug

 

[fastyacht]

Really---

Get a grip. It could have been a fishing boat, or a day marker. It was there; apparently for quite some time. DEAL with it. You can't blame an obstruction for a crappy start.

No but from the description, it sounds like you can blame a crappy helmsman and a mainsheet trimmer who doesn't know how to EASE

FB- Doug

Maybe they had a bad day. Have you ever knocked a trailer light off backing into the garage? OR other?

The more interesting question--the reason this is even attracting attention--is whether this committee--or indeed any other--would have allowed that this collision could have occurred, and yet the boat be eligible to race.

There is a subtext here that, "no, you hit the boat, you are out" even though that isn't necessarily the correct interpretation. Let's say that the boat did stand by the pin boat, did exchange information, did offer to render assistance. I have a hunch that in this particular case, it would not have mattered--the committee was going to DSQ no matter what.

And that is the great question.

Also, who started this "IRPCAS" abbreviation? In the US it has been COLREGS since forever. That's how the Coast Guard abbreviated it as described in the applicable NVIC. Why is this alternative cropping up? IS it like having to change IYRU to ISAF (which should be ISF but that was taken. Lame.)

 

[phrfsux]

Also, who started this "IRPCAS" abbreviation? In the US it has been COLREGS since forever. That's how the Coast Guard abbreviated it as described in the applicable NVIC. Why is this alternative cropping up? IS it like having to change IYRU to ISAF (which should be ISF but that was taken. Lame.)

People are using IRPCAS because that's the wording in the preamble to RRS Part 2. And it's that way in the RRS because it's an international document.

 

[Presuming Ed]

IRPCAS does start with an I...