Gunboat 72V

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
62,243
5,467
De Nile
So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.
It’s not like they’re gonna sell another 20 million units into a discrete little market segment. These guys fill an order book and then build, maybe they have enough capital to spec out the first one or 2. Maybe. These are bespoke beasts, not charter boats for the Caribbean trade.

 

Mordoc

New member
36
12
Europe
French boat builders and Polyester resin, name a more iconic duo.
Some of them already switched to Vinylester resin or a combination of layers of Vinylester and Polyester (Lagoon), but why a high end (marketing claim) manufacturer (Outremer) still uses cheap Polyester resin? I don‘t get it.

 

Ruminator

Member
329
158
Florida
From a materials science standpoint; there's nothing inherently wrong with polyester resin in building boats.  Like all materials there is no perfect solution and polyester resin has both strengths (pros) and weaknesses (cons).  However, having said that most folks do not wish to pay a premium price for the drawbacks (real or imagined) for a polyester & fiberglass hull.  I wager half of this disdain is due to 'social media talking heads', who have little or no real understanding of the script they are reading.  And half is due to the multi-year osmotic issues a certain French boatyard (and their owners) endured because of carelessness.  All of this in contrast to the thousands of design and analytical engineering hours that have gone into building very good multihulls.  Outremer builds good multihulls with polyester resin.

I'm also not finding any evidence of a carbon fiber Outremer.  I do not consider a polyester vessel with CF options a "carbon multihull".  Based on the copious construction photos - both Wildings and Puffin are not CF multi's.  Meaning they are not predominantly carbon fiber and do not have carbon fiber hulls or decks (although they do get engineering kudos for using CF bulkheads even in hull #001).  I would enjoy seeing one of these, and so if anyone has a link or a site that would be appreciated.

Let's be safe out there!

 
So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.
Se7en_speed hit the nail on the head.  It's is much more difficult to scale down in size than it is to scale up while still retaining profit margins.  A smaller boat requires basically all the same equipment as a larger model so the only real cost savings are in labor hours.  In order to reduce labor hours, you need to standardize production and limit options.  On a high end semi-custom catamaran, keeping the labor hours in check is very difficult.  It's pretty much impossible for a brand like GB who's buyers are in it for the name recognition and associated prestige.  They tend to be demanding types who expect their boat to be tailored and customized to all their personal desires.  

It's also worth mentioning that the mid-40s "performance cat" market has recently become very saturated and GLY already builds one of the prime contenders, so they would essentially be creating additional competition against themselves.   With that in mind, I understand why GB doesn't see any value to risking their reputation for a model that would likely bring a fraction of the profitability of a 68 or a 72V.

 

Ruminator

Member
329
158
Florida
So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.
I think this approach bears merit.  

  • Carbon Fiber to Fiberglass cost ratios are currently hovering at 6:1 (I rounded up here, as some of us in the SE USA it's more like 5:1).  And that is an all-time low.  As traditional ratios were like 10:1.  And there have been production impacts due to the pandemic...
  • Epoxy to Polyester resin cost rations can be somewhere around 3:1.  
  • French minimum wages are at currently at ~10€ and the average hourly national wage is at ~24€.  Which is rather good from a company standpoint (and I'm not doing a deep dive into other issues here with French labor laws).  It's not as good as the labor costs in Vietnam and China of course, but screw fair trade and all.



So what does this mean?  It means that material costs are not irrelevant to building a multihull.  Never have been.  And I think there would be a market for something like an ORC50 (TS5) in all carbon.  A flat out speed machine with some creature comforts (to keep a 'Proper Sailing Admiral' and crew happy).  Who else could make(s) a: slippery fast multi, has at least three cabins, with less complexity and keeping exclusivity?  If not GB?

Anyone remember what creature comforts, complex systems, high tech, luxury appointments and electrical appliances did Tribe have when she first launched?

Cheers!

 
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Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,671
5,624
Canada
I build parts of my catamaran (bridgedeck cabin/cockpit sole/mast beam) in stitched e-glass + epoxy and corecell foam with carbon in lots of strategic places. I used up about a 500 ft roll of 12" wide carbon uni. 

Notwithstanding the smell of polyester the epoxy I used had a very long gel time (6 hrs at lowish temps) so I could do a complete big sandwich panel with inner and outer skins in one operation. Corecell is just so much better than the other foams for impact that on cat bridgedecks it's all I'd ever think of using.

The next step up is all carbon/epoxy and that is a big jump in price. Just smarter to keep the size of the bridgedeck moderate, windows small (windows are bloody heavy even in plastic) and live with the weight penalty.

 

HotCarNut

Member
57
16
Denver, CO
From a materials science standpoint; there's nothing inherently wrong with polyester resin in building boats.  Like all materials there is no perfect solution and polyester resin has both strengths (pros) and weaknesses (cons).  However, having said that most folks do not wish to pay a premium price for the drawbacks (real or imagined) for a polyester & fiberglass hull.  I wager half of this disdain is due to 'social media talking heads', who have little or no real understanding of the script they are reading.  And half is due to the multi-year osmotic issues a certain French boatyard (and their owners) endured because of carelessness.  All of this in contrast to the thousands of design and analytical engineering hours that have gone into building very good multihulls.  Outremer builds good multihulls with polyester resin.

I'm also not finding any evidence of a carbon fiber Outremer.  I do not consider a polyester vessel with CF options a "carbon multihull".  Based on the copious construction photos - both Wildings and Puffin are not CF multi's.  Meaning they are not predominantly carbon fiber and do not have carbon fiber hulls or decks (although they do get engineering kudos for using CF bulkheads even in hull #001).  I would enjoy seeing one of these, and so if anyone has a link or a site that would be appreciated.

Let's be safe out there!
You’re right, I was wrong.  They used infusion technology from Gunboat to lower the amount of resin required and thus reducing weight on Puffin.  They didn’t use carbon fiber in the hulls.  See link:

https://sailpuffin.com/2019/05/18/chasing-performance/

 
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Ruminator

Member
329
158
Florida
No worries.  As long as we are not racing on different boats: it's a collaboration not a competition.

Doug's wording was a little mixed on some of his posts.  I only knew that one because I've studied the construction steps for my own personal refit.

 
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Ruminator

Member
329
158
Florida
So the juxtaposition continues:

As the OP started this thread, GB was apparently already in possession of the 72V molds and are already working to finish hull #001.  A fairly well-kept secret in a small industry.  Perhaps they had some foreknowledge of the initial work being done for the HH88...

...

Now as of today, the HH44 is open for orders.  Seems like HH cracked the code on smaller 'unicorns'?  Not saying it's a right/wrong move - just interesting.

2022 HH Catamarans 44 Catamaran for sale - YachtWorld

Yes, the renditions have been on the HH website for a while, but now they're taking down payments.  Small 'unicorns', you don't say...

Perhaps HH is nipping at GB more than realized.  Should be an interesting anarchistic performance at the theatre to watch. 

Me, I'm grabbing some popcorn!

 
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Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,671
5,624
Canada
The HH44:

That is an incredibly ugly stern

image.png

This side stripe/recess is well done

image.png

 

vokstar

Member
242
128
Tasmania
I'm somewhat surprised that Gunboat hasn't used the moulds from Outremer and added a more Gunboaty cabin as a cheap way to make a smaller Gunboat with the Gunboat looks and fit and finish. Although I think there is a long wait list to get an Outremer... 

The looks of the HH's have never done it for much like this 72V, but I do wonder if when they were in the planning stage of the 68, they had done quite a bit of work on the 72V so they wanted to recoup some of their costs and decided to build it. 

 

Ruminator

Member
329
158
Florida
Just to be fair, its not possible to compare apples to apples (HH:GB). 

Although the HH website says: "...excellent sailing performance, robust carbon fiber construction, exquisite interior fit and finish,.."  The sales ad says: "Daggerboards, E-Glass, Carbon..."  And the website rendition of the crossbeam presence gives the FG&CF blended construction away.  Perhaps based on initial Ocean Series sales, HH believes that this approach will sell to the 'nouveau riche'.

The stern reminds me of some early renditions by Mr. Grainger for the Raku.  I think the Raku can still be ordered with the truncated transoms (to fit the lifting rudders).

 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,675
254
Annapolis, MD
For the price of the HH44, I would be giving serious consideration to the Kinetic KC54, and the Marsaudon ORC50 etc. Larger boats but with similar price tags and possibly more suited to carrying a full complement of cruising gear.

 




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