Guns Must Microstamp in CA

[slatfatf]

If they tried that, Dabs, they certainly couldn't use the same legal argument. This only passed because it left a bunch of other handguns still available. It didn't even outlaw semi-autos - only new models, going forward. If a model is already on the list, you can still manufacture, import, sell it in Cali.

It's political theater, nothing else. Empty gestures.

Witness: one of the complainants in this case, IS allowed to buy the gun he wants; it's on the list. Only, not in the color he wants. Now, if that doesn't underline, to anyone with a brain, how ridiculously toothless Cali's law is... check it out:

legal in Cali:

Illegal in Cali:

Same gun, only difference is stainless or melonite finish on the slide.

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

 

[frenchie]

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

You think? I don't. It makes sense that no manufacturer wants to incur the retooling costs of implementing microstamping into new models, just to be able to sell a new model in Cali. But it also makes sense that manufacturers might want to not incur any retooling costs, and keep making models already on the list completely unchanged, in order to keep selling those models in Cali.

 

[slatfatf]

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

You think? I don't. It makes sense that no manufacturer wants to incur the retooling costs of implementing microstamping into new models, just to be able to sell a new model in Cali. But it also makes sense that manufacturers might want to not incur any retooling costs, and keep making models already on the list completely unchanged, in order to keep selling those models in Cali.

As I understand it, there is a recertification process for existing pistols as well, so there is a cost to keeping old models on the list. On top of that, it means they can not change any part at all, which means they are likely going to have to have a model, and associated product runs and tooling, that can only be sold in CA, still carry the costs of recertifying, while at the same time carrying the risk that CA simply bans that model after they have gone through all those costs. The gun manufacturers have basically said, it is just not worth it for them to continue doing business in CA. Could they be bluffing? Sure, but I tend to believe them.

 

[Raz'r]

Microstamping won't do a damn thing to make the world a safer place. Easily defeated with dremel tools, emery cloth, after market firing pins, brass catchers. I am convinced the purpose of the law is to increase the cost of gun ownership. Kinda like the "armor piercing" bullet ban.

The purpose of the law is to DO SOMETHING!!!!! even if it does nothing.

kinda like voter id

 

[Dabnis]

A bit of a drift? The NCIS background check requires identification, for those who submit to it.

In any event, it is my opinion that this is nothing more than a back door attempt to eventually restrict/eliminate semi auto handguns,

then all handguns, then all firearms.

It can/will spread to other liberal states, then to a Federal level.

Have to hand it to the anti gun folks, they never give up. :angry:

I have to send another massive donation to the NRA;

https://joinnra.nra.org/donate.aspx

Dabs

 

[frenchie]

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

You think? I don't. It makes sense that no manufacturer wants to incur the retooling costs of implementing microstamping into new models, just to be able to sell a new model in Cali. But it also makes sense that manufacturers might want to not incur any retooling costs, and keep making models already on the list completely unchanged, in order to keep selling those models in Cali.

As I understand it, there is a recertification process for existing pistols as well, so there is a cost to keeping old models on the list. On top of that, it means they can not change any part at all, which means they are likely going to have to have a model, and associated product runs and tooling, that can only be sold in CA, still carry the costs of recertifying, while at the same time carrying the risk that CA simply bans that model after they have gone through all those costs. The gun manufacturers have basically said, it is just not worth it for them to continue doing business in CA. Could they be bluffing? Sure, but I tend to believe them.

Smith & Wesson, for example, has said they're not bothering to recertify any models of the M&P other than the M&P Shield. But in the same statement, they said they wouldn't be changing anything at all in the M&P shield, and would keep re-certifying it, so they can continue to sell it in California.

Granted, the list of de-certified certainly seems to outnumber the list of newly certified, every month. And the Cali DOJ does seem to be abusing the law - the actual bill specifically allows purely cosmetic changes, like finish.

I'd be curious to see how a lawsuit by the guy who wanted the 2-tone XP would fare, based on that argument. But I doubt SAF or Calguns would cover the plaintiff's legal fees for a case that challenged the DOJ's administration of the law, rather than the law itself.

 

[Dabnis]

My post # 49:

Should have been "NICS" , oh dear, I made a mistake.

Dabs

 

[jocal505]

A bit of a drift? The NCIS background check requires identification, for those who submit to it.

In any event, it is my opinion that this is nothing more than a back door attempt to eventually restrict/eliminate semi auto handguns,

then all handguns, then all firearms.

It can/will spread to other liberal states, then to a Federal level.

Have to hand it to the anti gun folks, they never give up. :angry:

I have to send another massive donation to the NRA;

https://joinnra.nra.org/donate.aspx

Dabs

Imaginings.

Such fears address the totality of this problem, but go far beyond the stated goals of the "anti" groups now in existence.

You are discussing the righteous action which will evolve thirty years from now, IMO.

 

[jocal505]

Microstamping won't do a damn thing to make the world a safer place. Easily defeated with dremel tools, emery cloth, after market firing pins, brass catchers. I am convinced the purpose of the law is to increase the cost of gun ownership. Kinda like the "armor piercing" bullet ban.

Ya think???

This is lowbrow gunguy conversation. I know, sorry to interrupt you as you pass half-truths back and forth.

(The choir, singing to the choir.)

Well, those who modify their firing pins will choose to break laws, and thus will become non-law-abiders. Whoops, a weapons violation.

I don't suppose that 100% of the original firing pins will get modified, by law-abiders.

I suppose micro-stamping will solve a crime or two, and will trace a gun or two, as well.

The SA Gun Club is enjoys being part of the problem, IMO. Carry on.

 

[slatfatf]

First, let me preface this by admitting I am idiot for once again attempting to engage in a discussion with you Jocal. With that being said, if you only expect law abiding gun owners to leave the firing pins with the microstamps intact, how in the world do you expect it to "solve a crime or two" as well? The law abiding people, by definition, are not committing crimes. Now excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall.

 

[Raz'r]

A bit of a drift? The NCIS background check requires identification, for those who submit to it.

In any event, it is my opinion that this is nothing more than a back door attempt to eventually restrict/eliminate semi auto handguns,

then all handguns, then all firearms.

It can/will spread to other liberal states, then to a Federal level.

Have to hand it to the anti gun folks, they never give up. :angry:

I have to send another massive donation to the NRA;

https://joinnra.nra.org/donate.aspx

Dabs

Not really. Righties up in arms (haha) about some bogus little law that means fuck all, but yes, doesn't pass the test of being useful so it should be tossed.

Lefties all up in arms over voter ID, again, just as useless, and should be tossed.

 

[frenchie]

More to the point: how's someone gonna modify their microstamping firing pins, when no gun manufacturer makes them?

Pretty hard to take a file to vaporware.

 

[Dabnis]

Criminals don't register their guns, or go through background checks.

Dabs

 

[slatfatf]

More to the point: how's someone gonna modify their microstamping firing pins, when no gun manufacturer makes them?

Pretty hard to take a file to vaporware.

Yes, that too!

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

You think? I don't. It makes sense that no manufacturer wants to incur the retooling costs of implementing microstamping into new models, just to be able to sell a new model in Cali. But it also makes sense that manufacturers might want to not incur any retooling costs, and keep making models already on the list completely unchanged, in order to keep selling those models in Cali.

There's a bit of a conflict between "completely unchanged" and the topic of this thread, "must microstamp."

They'll have to change them to make them microstamp and that means recertification. Bottom line: new semi-auto sales banned. Yes, even sales of existing models.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

... Has microstamping ever solved any crime?

I suppose micro-stamping will solve a crime or two, and will trace a gun or two, as well.

Oh. I'll take that as a no. Possibly because it hasn't been implemented until now.

Which means this part of the topic post is BS.

About 1.5 million handguns were legally sold in California since opponents sued in 2009 to block the microstamping requirement, which according to Mueller’s ruling shows that the law doesn’t effectively ban the sale of firearms in the state.

A law that has not been implemented doesn't affect anything (yet). Hmmm... How comforting. Says nothing about what happens when it is implemented. What happens is: a ban on new semi-auto sales.

 

[frenchie]

The problem is that because CA views any change, even cosmetic, to be a new model, within a few years there will be nothing left on the approved list. If it is not overturned, then pretty much only revolvers will be legal in 2-4 years. I agree it is all meant to be theater, but it could have a very real impact on private gun owners out there.

You think? I don't. It makes sense that no manufacturer wants to incur the retooling costs of implementing microstamping into new models, just to be able to sell a new model in Cali. But it also makes sense that manufacturers might want to not incur any retooling costs, and keep making models already on the list completely unchanged, in order to keep selling those models in Cali.

There's a bit of a conflict between "completely unchanged" and the topic of this thread, "must microstamp."

They'll have to change them to make them microstamp and that means recertification. Bottom line: new semi-auto sales banned. Yes, even sales of existing models.

No, they won't. It only applies to new models. The need to re-certify is triggered by changing something. Leave it unchanged, it stays on the list.

read the judgment:

https://ia801400.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.191444/gov.uscourts.caed.191444.94.0.pdf

Or just read the NRA-ILA's article on it:

"Pistols on the Roster before these requirements were added are “grandfathered,” meaning they do not need to meet the new requirements to stay on the Roster."

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140123/californias-microstamping-requirement-bans-sale-of-improved-pistols-dealers-face-shortage-of-handguns-approved-for-sale

 

[frenchie]

A law that has not been implemented doesn't affect anything (yet). Hmmm... How comforting. Says nothing about what happens when it is implemented. What happens is: a ban on new semi-auto sales.

Implemented in may 2013.

 

[jocal505]

A law that has not been implemented doesn't affect anything (yet). Hmmm... How comforting. Says nothing about what happens when it is implemented. What happens is: a ban on new semi-auto sales.

Tinfoil hat, with imagining.

 

[Dabnis]

A law that has not been implemented doesn't affect anything (yet). Hmmm... How comforting. Says nothing about what happens when it is implemented. What happens is: a ban on new semi-auto sales.

Tinfoil hat, with imagining.

Everything starts somewhere. May not effect you unless you want to buy a new semi auto in California, then later, nation wide.

About as "Back door" as it can be. Criminals do not register their guns or submit to a background check,

Dabs