Guns on the border

Shife

Super Anarchist
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OK so you get Ruger to do what exactly? Remington? Colt? Browning? Yes they are manufacturers but hey, if I need major firepower it will not be a Remington Bolt Action,(except for sniping) or a Ruger over and under shotgun. Nope, I'd get the cheaper full auto out of the box stuff. Grenades? Just who in the US sells grenades? Ok I get it, lets place the blame on the people farthest away from the real problem. Typical Socialist Govt BS.. Makes perfect sense, outlaw the paper companies because Time Life circulates pure anti American trash. IS that it?

Seal the border. If Mexico wants to stop the flow of firearms, seal the boarder. If the US wants to stop the drugs, seal the boarder. Granted there will always be a limited amount of leakage, but it is a start, and a good one. Of course you will have to mow your own fucking lawn...
Seriously? Why not to add a disclaimer to that post that reads "I don't know dick about guns." I hope you were joking when you wrote this post. If you're going to use brand names to make a point, at least do a little research.

I agree that the focus should be on rigid enforcement of the existing gun laws and come down like a sledgehammer on any dealer violating the law. Unlike the gun nuts I also agree that gun laws should be reviewed and altered/created/removed as necessary to ensure enforcement objectives both being met and are realistic.

 
Typical, have a problem in your country you can't fix blame the Unites States.

Way to go Felipe, trying the old "lets deflect their attention and place the blame elsewhere trick."

So Machiavellian
Pretending Calderon is fixing the blame for the problem on the weapons? Or pretending we can wash our hands of any responsibility for doing anything helpful simply because we are the market and not the supplier...

I guess either works about as well.
Guns are not the real power of the cartels it is their corruption of the police and the army.

Why don't we wash our hands to all the aid money we have been sending Mexico to fight this problem - cite: Merida Initiative . What is it $1.6 billion, and how much did Clinton promises the other day?

 
This is NOT, gonna end well.........

Drug cartels' new weaponry means war

MEXICO UNDER SIEGE

Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.

March 15, 2009|Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson

 

ZIHUATANEJO, MEXICO, AND MEXICO CITY — It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

 

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

 

*

 

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

 

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

 

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

 

"There is an arms race between the cartels," said Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government.

 

"One group gets rocket-propelled grenades, the other has to have them."

 

There are even more ominous developments: Authorities reported three thefts of several hundred pounds of blasting material from industrial explosives plants in Durango during a four-day period last month. Authorities believe the material may have been destined for car bombs or remotely detonated roadside devices, which have been used with devastating effect in Iraq, killing more than 1,822 members of U.S.-led forces since the war there began nearly six years ago.

 

The Mexican army has recovered most of the material, and there has been no reported use of such devices.

 

Grenades or military-grade weapons have been reported in at least 10 Mexican states during the last six months, used against police headquarters, city halls, a U.S. consulate, TV stations and senior Mexican officials. In a three-week period ended March 6, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations and the home of a commander in the south-central state of Michoacan. Other such attacks occurred in five other states during the same period.

 
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Mark K

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Jeff B said:
Jeff B said:
I'm looking to the NRA to suggest some solutions, assuming they give a shit, which I very certainly doubt they do.
Ummmm, since when did it become the NRA's job to suggest solutions? Not that there would be any problem if they did, but that's not thier job. IN case you haven't noticed, they are a lobby - nothing more, nothing less. Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of the NRA by any stretch. Their "all or nothing" approach to sensible gun laws has been less than constructive IMHO. All I'm saying though is its up to the NRA to "fix" the gun smuggling and violence problem in Mexico about as much as its up to the AMA to fix the looming Medicare budget shortfall. Sure the lobbys can suggest, but they are not required to do so nor does the solution hinge on them doing so.

Seriously Mark, are you suggesting that the entire success or failure of stopping the illegal arms trade to Mexico hinges on what the NRA says or suggests???? Seriously?
I never suggested anything like 'entire'.

Fact is when it comes to restricting weapons they have enormous political power. They can and do scuttle anything, including discussion. I'm sure their membership as a whole would not approve of the gun makers selling to these people, but the leadership will remain silent. They will blame the failure of the nanny state, which they have cowed into silence. As you do.
Can you please cite where they've scuttled anything, including discussion on this issue?

And the nanny state certainly hasn't been cowed into silence. I recall vividly both obama and Hillary as SECSTATE making bold statements about stopping the gun violence. But not a whole lot has been done that I'm aware of. I certainly don't think they're waiting on the NRA to do anything about it or give them the greenlight to take some action.

The reality is that it IS the nanny-state's job to enforce this. This task (protection of the border and security of the state) is one of the few absolutely "must do" things that the nanny state is supposed to be doing. In fact we have an entire agency dedicated to this role - its called the BATF. And furthermore - the related agencies of the CBP and the parent org called DHS all have a part to play in this.

In fact I even went to the ATF's website and low and behold under mission statement I found THIS:

ATF is a unique law enforcement agency in the United States Department of Justice that protects our communities from violent criminals, criminal organizations, the illegal use and trafficking of firearms, the illegal use and storage of explosives, acts of arson and bombings, acts of terrorism, and the illegal diversion of alcohol and tobacco products.
Funny, nary a mention about the NRA's role in protecting against illegal trafficking......
Risk of the NRA declaring Jihad on them does not frighten politicians?

Did you really think I thought the NRA enforces law?

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Unlike the gun nuts I also agree that gun laws should be reviewed and altered/created/removed as necessary to ensure enforcement objectives both being met and are realistic.
They were just reviewing the Chicago gun ban at the Supreme Court, and I thought the gun nut from the NRA did a pretty good job, almost enough to make me forgive them for trying to scuttle the whole thing in the first place.

Did you agree with reviewing that law? What do you think of the review so far?

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,858
This is NOT, gonna end well.........

Drug cartels' new weaponry means war

MEXICO UNDER SIEGE

Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.

March 15, 2009|Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson

 

ZIHUATANEJO, MEXICO, AND MEXICO CITY — It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

 

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

 

*

 

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

 

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

 

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

 

"There is an arms race between the cartels," said Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government.

 

"One group gets rocket-propelled grenades, the other has to have them."

 

There are even more ominous developments: Authorities reported three thefts of several hundred pounds of blasting material from industrial explosives plants in Durango during a four-day period last month. Authorities believe the material may have been destined for car bombs or remotely detonated roadside devices, which have been used with devastating effect in Iraq, killing more than 1,822 members of U.S.-led forces since the war there began nearly six years ago.

 

The Mexican army has recovered most of the material, and there has been no reported use of such devices.

 

Grenades or military-grade weapons have been reported in at least 10 Mexican states during the last six months, used against police headquarters, city halls, a U.S. consulate, TV stations and senior Mexican officials. In a three-week period ended March 6, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations and the home of a commander in the south-central state of Michoacan. Other such attacks occurred in five other states during the same period.

Thanks for posting that. I clearly haven't been getting the point across that this is pretty much a war now.

Gotta take a side, and do it full bore.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
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Risk of the NRA declaring Jihad on them does not frighten politicians?

Did you really think I thought the NRA enforces law?
No, but when you characterize what is by far the most reasonable gun rights organization as people who don't care about gang violence, are irrational and "have a cow" and in the latest installment are "jihadists" for gun rights, it does kind of leave the impression that ANY advocacy of gun rights is just not OK with you.

Can you name an acceptable gun rights organization, or should all of us just ignore gun bans and anything else the politicians might decide to pass?

 

Shife

Super Anarchist
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Unlike the gun nuts I also agree that gun laws should be reviewed and altered/created/removed as necessary to ensure enforcement objectives both being met and are realistic.
They were just reviewing the Chicago gun ban at the Supreme Court, and I thought the gun nut from the NRA did a pretty good job, almost enough to make me forgive them for trying to scuttle the whole thing in the first place.

Did you agree with reviewing that law? What do you think of the review so far?
I agree that it should be reviewed and IMHO it should be overturned.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Unlike the gun nuts I also agree that gun laws should be reviewed and altered/created/removed as necessary to ensure enforcement objectives both being met and are realistic.
They were just reviewing the Chicago gun ban at the Supreme Court, and I thought the gun nut from the NRA did a pretty good job, almost enough to make me forgive them for trying to scuttle the whole thing in the first place.

Did you agree with reviewing that law? What do you think of the review so far?
I agree that it should be reviewed and IMHO it should be overturned.
Well, OK, that leaves me with the same question I had for Mark. Since the NRA was by far the most mild-mannered of the groups pushing for that review, and in fact were against it before they were for it, and since you have previously called them extremists, can you suggest a gun rights group that is not extreme?

 

Shife

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Well, OK, that leaves me with the same question I had for Mark. Since the NRA was by far the most mild-mannered of the groups pushing for that review, and in fact were against it before they were for it, and since you have previously called them extremists, can you suggest a gun rights group that is not extreme?
I don't know about Mark, but for me I am not currently aware of any pro-gun organizations that fit with my views of responsible gun ownership and common sense gun control. The NRA has a long way to go before they'll win my trust back, the JPFO is a joke, and the GOA is just as hysterical as the JPFO. Not to mention the fact that I can't say or write JPFO without the Life of Brian popping into my head. "Splitters!"

 

nimroods

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Know a few guys that have some serious firepower in the closets in the way of assault weapons. One I can say I would trust to own what he has, very responsible and a true collector and sportman, that is hunts with a bow and arrow. The other lets say not all the screws are lined up right and it makes me a little nervous knowing that he own this weapon, and is very proficient at at using it.

IMPO, the only way we're going to solve the weapons going south and the drugs coming north boarder problem with Mexico is go to the extreme and shut the border down with army/marines/national guard whatever; "cus what were doing just aint working."

For you legal beagles would this be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act? Is there a limit to the federal easment for the our land boarder on mile, two miles five miles, eleven miles?

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
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Risk of the NRA declaring Jihad on them does not frighten politicians?

Did you really think I thought the NRA enforces law?
No, but when you characterize what is by far the most reasonable gun rights organization as people who don't care about gang violence, are irrational and "have a cow" and in the latest installment are "jihadists" for gun rights, it does kind of leave the impression that ANY advocacy of gun rights is just not OK with you.

Can you name an acceptable gun rights organization, or should all of us just ignore gun bans and anything else the politicians might decide to pass?
I never said they were irrational. Don't even think that, they know what they want and know how to do it. The small percentage of their members whose views align with their propaganda, perhaps, but that's off topic and irrational is a a very imprecise word for what that is.

Cutting off the flow of arms to the Cartels could get pretty gol-derned draconian for a spell. The NRA has to be on board for that to happen. Only they can give Blue Dogs and rational Republicans the political cover they would need on this.

 

Mark K

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Jeff B said:
Cutting off the flow of arms to the Cartels could get pretty gol-derned draconian for a spell. The NRA has to be on board for that to happen. Only they can give Blue Dogs and rational Republicans the political cover they would need on this.
Mark, you keep dancing around the issue. Would PLEASE spell out precisely what you think both the NRA should be advocating and what you think the nanny state should be doing wrt to getting "draconian"?
I don't know precisely what would be required, I'm not in that business. But its hard to imagine it being an easy task.

I'll spell it out for you.

The NRA should stand with the Mexican Government in their fight against these militarized Cartels, and not with the manufacturers who seek to profit from them. Let Uncle Sam do whateverthefuk it needs to cut the flow to the absolute minimum possible until this shakes out a bit.

 

CA Railwhale

Super Anarchist
Know a few guys that have some serious firepower in the closets in the way of assault weapons. One I can say I would trust to own what he has, very responsible and a true collector and sportman, that is hunts with a bow and arrow. The other lets say not all the screws are lined up right and it makes me a little nervous knowing that he own this weapon, and is very proficient at at using it.

IMPO, the only way we're going to solve the weapons going south and the drugs coming north boarder problem with Mexico is go to the extreme and shut the border down with army/marines/national guard whatever; "cus what were doing just aint working."

For you legal beagles would this be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act? Is there a limit to the federal easment for the our land boarder on mile, two miles five miles, eleven miles?
In this case, the military wouldn't be involved in law enforcement actions which are prohibited. They would be involved in defending our borders which is a proper military function and is fully legal. If you have any doubts, dig up Pancho Villa and ask him what happens when you violate the US border. Before I get jumped on, let me assure everyone that I am not in favor of invading Mexico as we did in 1916 to stop Villa'a cross border violence.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Well, OK, that leaves me with the same question I had for Mark. Since the NRA was by far the most mild-mannered of the groups pushing for that review, and in fact were against it before they were for it, and since you have previously called them extremists, can you suggest a gun rights group that is not extreme?
I don't know about Mark, but for me I am not currently aware of any pro-gun organizations that fit with my views of responsible gun ownership and common sense gun control. The NRA has a long way to go before they'll win my trust back, the JPFO is a joke, and the GOA is just as hysterical as the JPFO. Not to mention the fact that I can't say or write JPFO without the Life of Brian popping into my head. "Splitters!"
So you like the result in the Heller case, but have no use for the groups that worked toward that result? Would you rather have your cake, or eat it?

Would you prefer that gun rights groups disappear, and let people like Bull Gator, who views the 2nd amendment right to bear arms as "unfortunate" and advocates taking or taxing ammo to mitigate that unfortunate right, run the show?

 

Pertinacious Tom

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I never said they were irrational.
Nah, just that they might "have a cow" if someone proposed a gun control law, that they don't care about gang violence, and that they're jihadists. So you think they're ordinary, rational jihadists who don't care about gang violence and are prone to react, if not by having a cow, at least by being irrational, not that I can see any difference?

And in the next sentence, you say this is going to require some pretty draconian...something...gun control laws perhaps? So maybe you have in mind something that might provoke a rational gun rights advocate to have a cow? It's hard to tell, without specifics. You know, like specific examples of draconian gun control laws you think might help, or even the specific examples showing why you think the NRA are rational jihadists prone to having cows who don't care about gang violence.

 
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Shife

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So you like the result in the Heller case, but have no use for the groups that worked toward that result? Would you rather have your cake, or eat it?

Would you prefer that gun rights groups disappear, and let people like Bull Gator, who views the 2nd amendment right to bear arms as "unfortunate" and advocates taking or taxing ammo to mitigate that unfortunate right, run the show?
There you go again, Tom. If you're going to put words in my mouth and make assumptions, we're done having a discussion. Now that you're in gun nut mode you might as well go back to asserting that the Chicago gun ban was a racist plot perpetrated by the anti-gun crowd to keep the black man down.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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So you like the result in the Heller case, but have no use for the groups that worked toward that result? Would you rather have your cake, or eat it?

Would you prefer that gun rights groups disappear, and let people like Bull Gator, who views the 2nd amendment right to bear arms as "unfortunate" and advocates taking or taxing ammo to mitigate that unfortunate right, run the show?
There you go again, Tom. If you're going to put words in my mouth and make assumptions, we're done having a discussion. Now that you're in gun nut mode you might as well go back to asserting that the Chicago gun ban was a racist plot perpetrated by the anti-gun crowd to keep the black man down.
Those are questions, not assumptions. They really are all answered by the first one:

So you like the result in the Heller case, but have no use for the groups that worked toward that result?

I never asserted that the Chicago gun ban was a racist plot, I just pointed out that the city of Chicago was relying on racist precedents from an era when gun control was specifically directed at being a racist plot to keep the black man down. Shall I find and link to your repeated requests for a link citation recently when someone said you said something you never said? Or are you just going to link or apologize, as you have asked others to do?

 

Shife

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Tom, it's obvious you're not interested in a discussion. You just want to twist anything I say into a perversion where in your mind I need the pro-gun lobby. I've said nothing of the Heller case, therefore you are putting words in my mouth. When you want to act like a big boy and have a real discussion, let me know. As long as you want to ram the pro-gun lobby down my throat as if I owe them something, you can go find somebody else to play with.

 
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