H/111 rudder bearing

[George Dewey]

And now I'm told my J/111's rudder bearing has pieces falling out of it and needs to be replaced. The boat yard has never done one, and asked me what bearing (pretty sure it's some Jaffa) and and for info on how to install it. I'll contact J Boats and CCCF but I thought I would ask here as well. It's a 2011 and I recall there is a TSB about the rudder. Something about an early J/111 sinking near Nova Scotia on her way to the UK.

Anyone have any pointrs?

Thanks guys!

 

[slug zitski]

Hard to tell without seeing it

typically Jefa on those j boats

Index of /ftp/old_boat_spare_parts/J-Boat/J111

 

[Irrational 14]

Good time for the Bieker 111 Rudder Upgrade.

 

[El Borracho]

And now I'm told my J/111's rudder bearing has pieces falling out of it and needs to be replaced. The boat yard has never done one, and asked me what bearing (pretty sure it's some Jaffa) and and for info on how to install it. I'll contact J Boats and CCCF but I thought I would ask here as well. It's a 2011 and I recall there is a TSB about the rudder. Something about an early J/111 sinking near Nova Scotia on her way to the UK.

Anyone have any pointrs?

Thanks guys!

Have the yard work closely with PYI. PYI seems to really take care and know the details of Jefa repairs. Or go to a different yard.

 

[steele]

My 2012 J109 had JP3 bearings, and I suspect 111s from that same era have them as well. I can't figure out what would be falling out of them, the issue is more often corrosion of the aluminium housing and problems with loosening of the collar that keeps the shaft from dropping down. I agree with PYI being a great resource, I purchased my replacement Jefa bearings from them.

 

[Jim Z]

Good time for the Bieker 111 Rudder Upgrade.

Following is the link to the "Bieker J/111 Rudder Upgrade" string Irrational 14 referenced.

Bieker rudder on a J/111?

Heard it's been done. Recon is now sporting one. Anyone know anything about it? We've been discussing a rudder upgrade. 4 of the 6 boats in our region have already replaced their rudders. I believe 3 of them still have the same blade configuration. Having raced our J/111 for a year...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

 

[George Dewey]

Good time for the Bieker 111 Rudder Upgrade.

I actually thought of that, looking into it.

 

[George Dewey]

PYI was terrific, knew just what I needed and had it in stock. It's all on the way.

 

[George Dewey]

Good time for the Bieker 111 Rudder Upgrade.

Got the pricing on this, $16,000. Nice upgrade for sure but not in the budget right now.

 

[Irrational 14]

Was that for the new blade AND install?

 

[slug zitski]

Was that for the new blade AND install?

a new profile is not too expensive

cutting out the old bottom bearing and replacing with a jumbo bearing is a lot of work

 

[Roleur]

Was that for the new blade AND install?

Probably.

 

[Irrational 14]

a new profile is not too expensive

cutting out the old bottom bearing and replacing with a jumbo bearing is a lot of wor

Not too expensive? Perhaps a simple fiberglass and foam blade from a mold stock…
Modern high aspect rudders with todays minimal chord lengths require proper engineering, higher end materials and even a higher skill set than most to build them so they don’t snap. Even an FT 10 rudder upgrade is around $7k last time I checked.

 

[slug zitski]

Not too expensive? Perhaps a simple fiberglass and foam blade from a mold stock…
Modern high aspect rudders with todays minimal chord lengths require proper engineering, higher end materials and even a higher skill set than most to build them so they don’t snap. Even an FT 10 rudder upgrade is around $7k last time I checked.

I’m sure that a substaitial part of the rudder cost is design fee. Those guys arent cheap

the blade had finer detailing , but nothing extreme for a skilled builder

the stock reinforcement ..I guess the old stock was saved ..is evident by the extra large diameter bearing …this definitely adds cost

 

[Roleur]

I believe the design fee is roughly 10% of the overall cost.

 

[slug zitski]

I believe the design fee is roughly 10% of the overall cost.

Sounds Possible ..most of that stuff is almost off the shelf..a bit of tweaking on the computer, plus a few emails

the last time I had a rudder reskinned it was 6800 euro
no design fee, same stock and bearing ..it was a swan..good profile, not gran prix detailing

16000 is a lot for a performance upgrade on a small boat ….but then again a racing bottom job is not cheap….I guess it up to the customer

 

[Roleur]

Sounds Possible ..most of that stuff is almost off the shelf..a bit of tweaking on the computer, plus a few emails

the last time I had a rudder reskinned it was 6800 euro
no design fee, same stock and bearing ..it was a swan..good profile, not gran prix detailing

16000 is a lot for a performance upgrade on a small boat ….but then again a racing bottom job is not cheap….I guess it up to the customer

I would agree with you if it was strictly a performance upgrade. Main reason for the upgrade on a J/111 is not for performance, and looks pretty cheap compared to the boat sinking or needing to be towed from who knows where after the original rudder breaks.

 

[slug zitski]

I would agree with you if it was strictly a performance upgrade. Main reason for the upgrade on a J/111 is not for performance, and looks pretty cheap compared to the boat sinking or needing to be towed from who knows where after the original rudder breaks.

Strange that the designer got the rudder scantlings wrong …typically a substantial safety factor is included

the common way a rudder stock breaks is when the lower self aligning bearing freezes up and is no longer self aligning .


.point loading the stock ..keep an eye on yours, keep it lubricated

 

[Jim Z]

We have been extensively racing (and day sailing) J/111 hull #17, MADMEN, in SF Bay since the boat was delivered in March 2011. We have replaced the stock rudder bearing twice since then, most recently in 2021 and have had no serious issues or failure. Just a significant binding feel in the helm, which drove the haul out, and bearing replacement. Each time the lower bearing was packed with salt and grit (nasty). We are, however, aware of some J/111 rudder failures, most notably hull # 1, which was lost at sea (all aboard were rescued). One of our sister ships here SF (hull number 100 +) has experienced a rudder failure as well.
I am aware the J/111 one design is still significant for certain owners (Great Lakes, Europe, US Nationals, Worlds etc.). However, like Roleur, albeit we will not go offshore, I think, if not one design focused, the larger diameter bearing and rudder stock and optimized rudder is a great call. BTW sincere congrats to you Roleur for your Double Handed Pac Cup pursuit. You guys are awesome!
Slug zitski, thanks for providing all of the fantastic info.

 

[George Dewey]

Was that for the new blade AND install?

Rudder and installation, $16,900. I'll attach the actual quote to this message, as a PDF. Sorry for the delayed reply!