Hard dodgers and covered cockpits

[Great Red Shark]

I think that hard dodgers are best summed up by the moped and fat girl joke.

Well? Elucidate please.

A moped is like a fat girl - they are a lot of fun to ride until your buddies see you.
Not sure how it applies to hardtops, but I can say that on every boat without one - in the tropics - that the FIRST thing you do after dousing the main is deploy the awning when you are cruising.

 

[DDW]

You can make a modest hard top dodger fold to have your cake and eat it too. Not one the size of New Morning's though.

Yacht designers ignore two things on cruising boats: dodgers and dinghy storage. Both are necessary, but both look bad (typically) on the drawings so the NA doesn't draw them. That leaves the owner cloning it on afterwards.

 

[U20guy2]

You can make a modest hard top dodger fold to have your cake and eat it too. Not one the size of New Morning's though.

Yacht designers ignore two things on cruising boats: dodgers and dinghy storage. Both are necessary, but both look bad (typically) on the drawings so the NA doesn't draw them. That leaves the owner cloning it on afterwards.

Scratch one of those off your list some of the larger production boats now have small dingy garages hidden behind the rear tailgate / flip down swim platforms. With enough money all of those things are easily overcome.

 

[Not My Real Name]

The challenge with any add on dodger, hard or soft, is to preserve visibility for sail handling. Many manufacturers position winches such that once a dodger goes on, you can't see what's happening at the other end of the line.

We cruised short handed like most cruisers so the AP is driving the boat 95% of the time. We wanted good visibility for sail handling and steering, and protection the other 95% of the time when standing watch. It doesn't matter if it's tropical sun or temperate latitude wind and cold, you need protection for those 6-8hrs a day that you are on watch alone.

I fully agree with the comment about not wanting to be closed in as is the case with pilot houses or boats with a helm station in a raised saloon. We found that being open aft provided very good protection while still giving us a feel for what was going on, as well as quick access to sail control lines and the helm. And on the hook, which is 80%+ of the time for cruisers, the protection is also welcome.

There are almost no cruisers without a dodger, and almost no production boat is designed to integrate a dodger. When do you think they'll figure it out?

Hallberg-Rassy does a pretty good job of it.

Love ours offshore - dry and warm. And you can be in the element if you want. Visibility is fine. I think it looks good too, but if course that is subjective.

 

[Red Sky]

Certainly immodest, but check out New Morning. Or walk over to Sausalito Yacht Harbor, E234.

Enjoy!

Incredible.

I'll second that. Absolutely gorgeous.

 

[thinwater]

I really, really dislike hard, total enclosures that completely cut you off from your environment.

I think it reduces your "feel" for what the boat is doing, in weather which in turn, inhibits your response.

If you have to have a full enclosure, Py26129's zip-in, modular configuration is the way to go.

While there is truth in this response, there is room for expansion:

* If the weather is cold rain or worse, I'm OK with being cut off from that.

* Skin cancer. Sunscreen is good, but shade is better. If it runs in the family you cannot understate the importance.

* Feel. That is actually only something you need to adjust to. Unless the hardtop is combined with a complete enclosure (I don't like those well either, unless motoring in cold conditions, and even them I wind I like to be able to poke my head out for better visibility and to listen) you can still hear everything and still feel a percentage of the wind. Just as sensation is reduced between a dingy and a cruiser, the information is still there, just damped. My first hard top through me for a few months, now I am completely accustomed.

* Time. A full enclosure can really slow deck access.

Though side panels are available for mine, I have no interest in them. On the other hand, if I lived aboard they would come out at dock when the temperature dipped to a certain point.

I really like the approach taken by New Morning. Having the helm in the open with the forward cockpit well-covered looks like an excellent compromise.

Not really a compromise. You're still in the sun and still in the rain. That's a long, hard companionway dodger, not a hard bimini. Pretty, though.

A compromise is a hard top with open sides for winch and deck access.

----

Folks without hard tops under rate a few advantages:

• Easy boom and reefing access.
• Excellent solar panel mounting with no additional windage (just be careful not to ruin the good boom access).
• Easy boom gallows, if you like that.
• Great hand rail locations.
• Great sunning location. Better breeze than on-deck.
• NEVER leaks, no maintenance.
• Better visibility than most soft tops, since they can structurally tolerate bigger windows.
• Easier to use rigid window materials ( Makralon etc).

As for size and windage, a hard top doesn't need to be huge. That's up to you.

 

[QBF]

I think the hard dodger on this Chuck Paine designed, 63 foot Kanter Bougainvillea is very well done.

The sun-shade covers were a nice touch, but I'm not taken with that funky "sunbrella" the owner installed.

 

[weightless]

I think the hard dodger on this Chuck Paine designed, 63 foot Kanter Bougainvillea is very well done.

The sun-shade covers were a nice touch, but I'm not taken with that funky "sunbrella" the owner installed.

Those aren't covers, they're the thermostat for the solar cooker.

 

[QBF]

I think the hard dodger on this Chuck Paine designed, 63 foot Kanter Bougainvillea is very well done.

The sun-shade covers were a nice touch, but I'm not taken with that funky "sunbrella" the owner installed.

Those aren't covers, they're the thermostat for the solar cooker.

I suppose if you're in the tropics, it might be a bit much, hence the sun-shades. However, in cooler climates, that house would work well, at least for me.

 

[Bob Perry]

This is my favorite:

 

[irwinr]

Hallberg-Rassy does a pretty good job of it.

Love ours offshore - dry and warm. And you can be in the element if you want. Visibility is fine. I think it looks good too, but if course that is subjective.

Yes, HR is a good example of a production hard dodger. Trintella also did a nice job.

 

[irwinr]

Wild Horses also looks lovely.

Bob - since you've worked with a lot of production manufacturers, and many of your designs are cruised, why do the manufacturers not call for a hard dodger in the original design?

 

[Bob Perry]

Morning:

I think they would today. Years ago you were lucky to have a canvas dodger. I think today we are softer. Maybe smarter. I don't know. I've never owned a boat with a dodger hard or soft. I suspect that any US production builder (are there any?) would spec a hard dodger today on anything over 34'.

Thanks for the kind words on WH. It's not so hard when you have 63' to work with.

 

[estarzinger]

All I can say is that Hawk's hard dodger is one of her very best features. I have wondered why more cruising boats don't have them. I know well the alternative, because we did not have one RTW on Silk. It's easy to design these in on +60', but Van de Stadt even has one that looks good and works well on 40'.

It provides tremendous protection - we sailed in Scotland in shirt sleeves while the locals were all in full foul weather gear - but it does not cut us off from quick access to the deck nor from a 'feel' for weather trends. I get more seasick in full enclosures and pilot houses.

Pilothouses, and Cat deck saloons come into their own at anchor.

 

[afterguy]

The whole discussion is kinda moot without knowing where and what kind of sailing you're going to do. If you're going to be cruising in high latitudes then you're going to suffer without the protection of a dodger. If you're going to the tropics then a bimini or other shade cover is really important. For day sailing around SF Bay or Half Moon Bay then you can probably get by with neither and feel more connected to the environment.

Personally I've had boats with and without dodgers and I'd never go without again. Bashing upwind, snug under the dodger, drinking a warm/cold drink of your choice, a loved one tucked under your arm, hard to beat. And then there's the handholds on the side of the dodger which make going forward way more secure.

Anyway, that's the pros of a dodger, hard or soft. I would say that the main pros of a hard dodger are that you can stand on it when messing with the mainsail and that you can mount stuff on it.

Full cockpit enclosure is a whole other discussion. Fugly for sure, definitely more comfortable in certain circumstances. Maybe weather cloths get you 75% of the way there, lots of cruising boats have them.

 

[zenmasterfred]

My helm is in the open, I do not have a hermetically sealed power boat fucking enclosure. If you want one of those just fucking buy a Bayliner powerboat. Can't fucking the full canvas w/ zip up windows. Say no More!!!

 

[thinwater]

My helm is in the open, I do not have a hermetically sealed power boat fucking enclosure. If you want one of those just fucking buy a Bayliner powerboat. Can't fucking the full canvas w/ zip up windows. Say no More!!!

Scratchy wool underwear too?

Just teasing.

It boils down to how the boat is used and priorities. I soundly vetoed the idea on my first 2 boats for what I think were good reasons, and love it on the 3rd.

 

[Bob Perry]

I know the Zenmaster very well and I can assure you that the boat gets year round use in the always balmy PNW.

 

[Not My Real Name]

My helm is in the open, I do not have a hermetically sealed power boat fucking enclosure. If you want one of those just fucking buy a Bayliner powerboat. Can't fucking the full canvas w/ zip up windows. Say no More!!!

Love my hard dodger off shore. It's not hermetically sealed, you can still sail with swamp-ass if you want to.
Can't figure how to post a picture on the Mobile version of the forum but if anyone wants pictures there are some at the blog link in my sig line.

 

[armido]

I am fortunate my boat came with a simple design that protects crew from the sun and provides a modicum of protection from wind and rain. It goes up and comes down quickly at night or when wind strength makes free movement and visibility priorities. It stands up very well to strong wind, +-40 knots with no concern it will be damaged or blown away. The supports consist of the boom gallow and removable stainless tubing that joins to tubing inserts at the stanchions. Very simple and easy to stow. It's time for a new cover and planned improvement includes snap on panels at the front and back. This will provide infinitely better protection from wind driven rain and cold when at anchor in need of a shower... h34r: