Has anyone owned the 109 and 111

starsinker

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I’m looking to move up from a J92 to a larger boat mostly for headroom when cruising and for offshore racing. The 111 appeals as a racer and pure sailing boat, the 109 looks like a better dual purpose option and there are more of them in my area to race against.  Has anyone owned both and have an opinion on which is better and why? 

 
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WHK

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Paging Blur! He owned a J/109 and now has a J/111.

I own a J/109 and prefer the amenities that allow for both for the racing & cruising.  There is also a robust J/109 One Design class. The J/111 is a faster boat with a good rating too.  It is pretty spartan down below compared to the J/109.

 

Blur

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J/109 - great dual purpose yacht, especially if you like W/L-racing and want to cruise with the family. The sensible choice for most.

Compare to a Audi S4 Avant.

J/111 - focus on sailing (twice as fun as the J/109) and decent comfort for a weekend (or longer with the right expectations). Not really optimized for W/L on handicap as you'll probably have to line up against X-41, CS42, and a bunch of 45-footers. Fun offshore but more demanding.

Compare to a Porsche 911 Carerra.

If you're passionate about sailing, want to challenge yourself and have the opportunity to get a decent J/111 - just do it!

 
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Roleur

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We have a J/109 turned J/111 owner in our area.  I haven't talked to him about the 109, but I know he loves his 111.  I don't think he cares about cruising at all though.  

You can make a J/111 a decent cruiser with hot water and pressure water, fridge, some have ovens.  Hard to make a J/109 faster and more fun to sail.  

We went from a J/120 to a J/111.  Love sailing and racing the J/111.  The J/120 was obviously a better cruiser and we did have great race results too.  If cruising were our priority we would have stayed with the J/120.  

 

starsinker

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Thanks for this info. I’m going for a sale on a 111 later in November. (Not that there’s much for sale right now anyway) Most of my racing is round the bouys but would like to do more distance events. How much more athletic does the crew need to be for the 111 over the 109?

 

Blur

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Thanks for this info. I’m going for a sale on a 111 later in November. (Not that there’s much for sale right now anyway) Most of my racing is round the bouys but would like to do more distance events. How much more athletic does the crew need to be for the 111 over the 109?
Not that much. Biggest difference is that it's more sensitive to trim and active sailing, and really rewards the hard work you put in. 

In many aspects the lighter boat and lack of stability makes loads lighter, especially downwind.

 

Crash

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You can make a J/111 a decent cruiser with hot water and pressure water, fridge, some have ovens.  Hard to make a J/109 faster and more fun to sail.  
Interesting thread, and some great comments by some great sailors.  My two cents (though I've only owned a 109).  I agree with both Roleur and Blur  for the most part.  It's much harder to make a 109 "faster" then it would be to make a 111 "cruisier," and that from a actively sail and trim standpoint, the 111 will be more rewarding.

I'll disagree somewhat on the "fun" side of the equation.  Fun means different things to different people, but just going faster doesn't necessarily mean its more "fun."  In my experience, fun (when racing) comes from sailing a boat with my friends in a fleet that is competitive on the race course, racing similar boats in a close rating band, yet is friendly and welcoming ashore during parties, etc.  When cruising, its about how relaxing and enjoyable your time on the boat is with your family (mostly) and maybe close friends.  I would posit you can have just as much "fun" on a J/109 as you can on a J/111.  If there are more J/109s where you sail and a nice tight rating band for the fleet you sail in, racing a J/109 could be more "fun" then racing a J/111 as an outlier, or in a fleet with a widely split rating band...

Hard to go wrong with either boat, and nothing said above is meant to say the J/111 might not be the better answer.

 

Blur

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I would posit you can have just as much "fun" on a J/109 as you can on a J/111
For me "more fun" ment I took the J/111 out twice as often compared to the J/109 - even if it was just a solo sail Wednesday night (the same reason a sports car is "more fun" than the family car, even it the latter is way better for most tasks).
 

 

Jono

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Slight hijack

Blur - you have been very quiet on your Med Summer. Did you have fun?

 

Blur

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Slight hijack

Blur - you have been very quiet on your Med Summer. Did you have fun?
We did. You need to follow the Facebook page for the latest B)  Both Aegean 600 (report here) and the recent Middle Sea Race (full report soon) was epic races with lots of wind. Managed to pull off class wins in both races, but in general it was big boat affairs. 

Also got some decent cruising going from Malta to Greece and back.




 

Roleur

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One reason we bought a J/111 over a J/109 or J/120 is the non-overlapping headsail.  For shorthanded racing or cruising it is much easier to tack.  

Like Blur said, we do spend more time trimming the J/111 than the J/120.  It is more sensitive to trim, so for us, there is near constant change.  That is very rewarding, albeit it can be tiring in some cases.  

 

Crash

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I think...and it was some time ago, but I think, the cross over point for the 109 OD (non lapper) jib vs 155 phrf genny was around 8 knots TWS...if breeze was consistently at or over 8, then the 6 sec/mile rating difference (in PHRF) made the OD jib pay off...Having raced my 109 on the Chesapeake, and seeing the OP races in the PNW, that trade may/may not work all the time as light air (less than 8) is not uncommon.

I love Blur's sportscar analogy...and as his video shows, you can certainly cruise the 111.  That looked like fun!

 
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bloodshot

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I think it also depends on your regular crew.  The 109, to me, is one of the best amateur OD boats out there.  Get a good crew together, put some practice time in, and you can really get the results. 

The 111's payoffs for it being sailed well are greater.... but the grooves are a little tighter and its way harder on the crew.  

all things being equal, I'd rather cruise the 109.

 

starsinker

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This is great feedback to my original question, thanks everyone.  I like Blur's sportcars analogy and also identify with Crash's definition of fun.  I did a lot of shorthanded sailing this year, and my J92 was great for that, so Roleur's take makes sense with the smaller jibs.  It really seems like both boats are good choices with the 109 being more forgiving on crew work.  Going for my first sail in a 111 in a few weeks.  I probably have lots of time to make this decision as the market for both these boats in North America is seemingly non-existent.

 

MPH

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In the PNW? J111 for sure. The competition in that rating band is excellent and many of the 111's are proving to be very well sailed: Lodos, Raku, Hooligan, Recon, 65RR

 

Roleur

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In the PNW? J111 for sure. The competition in that rating band is excellent and many of the 111's are proving to be very well sailed: Lodos, Raku, Hooligan, Recon, 65RR
Can't wait for next weekend.  5 J/111's on the line for the first time in PNW.  

 

George Dewey

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Here in Charleston we have one J/111 (mine) with one more on it's way, I think no 109s and a whole bunch of 105s. So here, people might describe fun as OD racing and want a 105. You said there are more 109s where you are, and it is a better cruiser. It also retains the headsail furler if that matters to you. The 111 has a furler but the class removed the requirement to have it in 2018. On the 111, we typically have three headsails, the J1, J2 and heavy weather jib. The 109 (I believe) typically has just one class headsail. So your expenses may be a bit lower, and not doing sail changes and using the furler might make it a bit easier to race. But I don't think you'll get a 109 to plane, and the 111 is fine for a weekend cruise, if you don't mind roughing it. Although, I did convery my ice box to a refrigerator. 

If you want one of the two soon, well you may have to go the 109 route, unless you're looking for one brand new. I'm told that there are three new 111s inbound from France, all spoken for but one will be for sale. 

 
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Squalamax

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If you sail in a light air venue, the 111 is very hard to beat. Under 8 knots true its untouchable by most (at least in PHRF NE) 

 

LI_sailor

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When folks think about an amateur boat; we did the Vineyard race (270 miles) on our J111 with 3 adults and 5 teenagers (ages 18, 18, 15, 15, 15) and we were fine. I loved the dogwatch where we planed for nearly 4 hours with myself and 3 teenagers on my watch.  Lots of wipeouts of course, but still pretty easy to handle - assuming the main trimmer knows when to blow the main.

 
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