Hate/Love in diplomacy

[ShortForBob]

There's over 16,000 people dead in Turkey and Syria and will be thousands more.
Greece and Turkey are supposedly enemies, yet Greece was one of the first to offer aid.
Diggers, sniffer dogs, doctors etc

It's just a bit of a conundrum why countries that would drop a bomb on each other for long held grudges, will race into the breach with aid when their enemy is suffering natural disaster.



It's not the first time.

Turkey and Greece revive earthquake diplomacy – DW – 02/07/2023

Greece is assisting Turkey in dealing with the earthquake. The disaster may prove, once again, that Athens and Ankara can be good neighbors when it really counts.

www.dw.com

If Russia were to suffer some natural catastrophe at the moment, would NATO countries offer aid?

 

[boomer]

It's the right thing to do. Even in war, when the enemy waves a white flag, that's the only time your obligated to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Which brings up a sore point about that cowardly bully Trump, calling Qasem Soleimani for a peaceful negotiation, then taking him out with a Hellfire missile. That's wrong, you can go back thousands of years, you don't kill someone waving a white flag, it's wrong on every level of values, morals and ethics of the Ethical Warrior.

On top of that we assassinated not only Iran's John Wayne, we assassinated the Middle East's John Wayne. General Soleimani had a lot of respect not only in the Middle East, but respect around the world. Middle Easterners have a good memory, even if it takes years to avenge their John Wayne's assassination, then so be it, but his death will be avenged someday - history has shown, that's the way they work in the middle east.

According to the dictionary, values are “things that have an intrinsic worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor,” or “principles, standards, or qualities considered worthwhile or desirable.”


However, it is important to note that, although we may tend to think of a value as something good, virtually all values are morally relative – neutral, really – until they are qualified by asking, “How is it good?” or “Good to whom?” The “good” can sometimes be just a matter of opinion or taste, or driven by culture, religion, habit, circumstance, or environment, etc.


Again, almost all values are relative. The exception, of course, is the value of life. Life is a universal, objective value. We might take this point for granted, but we all have the life value, or we would not be alive. Life is also a dual value – we value our own life and the lives of others.


Moral values are relative values that protect life and are respectful of the dual life value of self and others. The great moral values, such as truth, freedom, charity, etc., have one thing in common. When they are functioning correctly, they are life protecting or life enhancing for all. But they are still relative values.


Our relative moral values must be constantly examined to make sure that they are always performing their life-protecting mission. All nations honor the core values of “honor, courage and commitment” require examination in this context.


Courage can become foolish martyrdom, commitment can become irrational fanaticism, honor can become self-righteousness, conceit, and disrespect for others. Our enemies have their own standard of honor, they have courage, and they are surely committed. What sets us apart? Respect for the universal life value sets us apart from our enemies.


A person who knows the difference between right and wrong and chooses right is moral. A person whose morality is reflected in his willingness to do the right thing – even if it is hard or dangerous – is ethical. Ethics are moral values in action.


Being ethical id an imperative because morality protects life and is respectful of others – all others. It is a lifestyle that is consistent with mankind’s universal values as articulated by the Ethical Warrior – human equality and the inalienable right to life.


As warriors it is our duty to be protectors and defenders of the life value and to perform the unique and difficult mission of taking the lives of those acting immorally (against life) when necessary to protect the lives of innocent others.


When you must kill protecting life it is still hard, but it is moral. Those who kill those not observant of their narrow relative religious, ethnic or criminal values – in other words, kill over relative values – are immoral. A dedication to protecting the life value of self and others – all others – makes the Ethical Warrior different and moral.


If all of that is a little too philosophical, look at it in simpler term as follows.


You are a kid in the schoolyard. You see a bully. He thinks he is the “top dog.” That is fine. That perception is a relative value. But when his relative value supersedes the life value of another kid – in other words, when the bully picks on and/or punches the other kid – this is wrong and must be stopped. Here is the rule: relative values, no matter how “great,” cannot supersede the life value.


You see the bully picking on the other kid. You feel – in your gut – that this is wrong. Congratulations, you are moral. (By the way, most people are moral – they know the difference between right and wrong)


Now…you see the bully picking on the other kid. You overcome the “freeze,” you overcome the embarrassment, and you go tell a teacher. Congratulations! You are ethical. (Ethics are moral values in action).


Now…you see the bully picking on the other kid. You overcome the “freeze,” you overcome the fear, and you go to the aid of the kid being bullied. You put yourself at risk. Congratulations! You have the makings of an Ethical Warrior.


And it doesn’t end in the schoolyard. Almost all problems in our society and the world are caused by bullies – those who would supersede the life value of others with their own relative values. Ethical Warriors counter the bullies.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

There's over 16,000 people dead in Turkey and Syria and will be thousands more.
Greece and Turkey are supposedly enemies, yet Greece was one of the first to offer aid.
Diggers, sniffer dogs, doctors etc

It's just a bit of a conundrum why countries that would drop a bomb on each other for long held grudges, will race into the breach with aid when their enemy is suffering natural disaster.



It's not the first time.

Turkey and Greece revive earthquake diplomacy – DW – 02/07/2023

Greece is assisting Turkey in dealing with the earthquake. The disaster may prove, once again, that Athens and Ankara can be good neighbors when it really counts.

www.dw.com

If Russia were to suffer some natural catastrophe at the moment, would NATO countries offer aid?

Prior to the current war they most certainly would have. Now, not a chance. I am not sure if you know this, but at least one of the helicopter pilots that got radiation sickness from working to stop the disaster at Chernobyl was taken to the USA for treatment. Sadly he died anyway, but we tried and we weren't best friends with the USSR at that point.
Note that providing aid has diplomatic consequences in several ways. The one being helped can be seen as the weaker party and the one providing aid the stronger, so Greece may want that image. The one providing aid to a rival may want to improve their public image, maybe the Greeks think Turks will not look at them as enemies once they see Greece helping them.
Or it could be none of the above, maybe Greece vs. Turkey is just like an overheated football rivalry and Greeks don't actually want large numbers of Turks to die in natural disasters. Could be that simple
* they are also close by, I am sure dog teams from here are headed over, but it is more than a drive for us.

 

[justsomeguy!]

The opposite of love isn't hate. It is indifference.

 

[ShortForBob]

Or it could be none of the above, maybe Greece vs. Turkey is just like an overheated football rivalry and Greeks don't actually want large numbers of Turks to die in natural disasters. Could be that simple
* they are also close by, I am sure dog teams from here are headed over, but it is more than a drive for us.

Hmm.
This is what I'm thinking though not confining it to Greeks V Turks, they are just a good example
So why do these countries keep beating the drums or war?
Greece and Turkey would have had armed interactions many times in the last 50 years if not for the intervention of the EU. So it's not like it's minor rivalry.

But they still send help when needed and I don't think it's a dick swinging contest.

I'm finding this difficult to explain.

Maybe its that in war, the victims are not people but just enemy.
In natural disaster, they are us.

Boiled down to that, it makes one wonder who makes the war, the people or the politicians and their propaganda.

 

[Lark]

Greece is EU and Turkey a partner nation. That means open borders and a lot of socializing, right? Personal connections overcome cultural differences in the absence of religion.

 

[ShortForBob]

Greece is EU and Turkey a partner nation. That means open borders and a lot of socializing, right? Personal connections overcome cultural differences in the absence of religion.

I don't think the partner nation has much to do with it. Greece has been a trading nation for thousands of years, they'd probably do the same for any country on the Med. Trader diplomacy is in their genes.

I don't think Greece is unique in helping hostile neighbours in a crisis.
Greek/Turkish borders are closed, well not as open as say, France and Germany. Turks need a visa to enter Europe

 

[LB 15]

Ignore the topic, it was just an excuse for the idiot to bring up Greece again.

 

[LB 15]

Prior to the current war they most certainly would have. Now, not a chance. I am not sure if you know this, but at least one of the helicopter pilots that got radiation sickness from working to stop the disaster at Chernobyl was taken to the USA for treatment. Sadly he died anyway, but we tried and we weren't best friends with the USSR at that point.
Note that providing aid has diplomatic consequences in several ways. The one being helped can be seen as the weaker party and the one providing aid the stronger, so Greece may want that image. The one providing aid to a rival may want to improve their public image, maybe the Greeks think Turks will not look at them as enemies once they see Greece helping them.
Or it could be none of the above, maybe Greece vs. Turkey is just like an overheated football rivalry and Greeks don't actually want large numbers of Turks to die in natural disasters. Could be that simple
* they are also close by, I am sure dog teams from here are headed over, but it is more than a drive for us.

Certainly in my experience (and I lived in Greece a shiitload longer than our resident 'Karon of Troy' has) Any animosity between Greece and Turkey is purely at a Government level. Virtually every Greek I have ever met has no issue with the Turkish people and many have relatives there.
The average Geórgios on the streets of Athens get far more fired up over Macedonia, which appears to me to be nothing more than an intellectual property matter.

 

[Mark_K]

I don't think the partner nation has much to do with it. Greece has been a trading nation for thousands of years, they'd probably do the same for any country on the Med. Trader diplomacy is in their genes.

I don't think Greece is unique in helping hostile neighbours in a crisis.
Greek/Turkish borders are closed, well not as open as say, France and Germany. Turks need a visa to enter Europe

The concept of burying the hatchet is more prominent in places of the world, like the Balkans, which has had a couple thousand years of hundreds of wars. They tend to be more capable of fighting like hell and then letting it pass than we imagine in general. We westerners, conditioned by movies which always have a black hat and a white hat, don't have a similar legacy so we sometimes find it hard to grasp.

Perhaps no place better demonstrates this than Rwanda. Neighbors forgave and forgot next door neighbors who had come into their house with machetes and hacked half their family to death...and remain neighbors to this day, even friends. All but incomprehensible to us, but we don't have a recent legacy having to end tribal wars in which the "bad guys" are left still around...and not completely unbowed...or even defeated.

 

[ShortForBob]

The concept of burying the hatchet is more prominent in places of the world, like the Balkans, which has had a couple thousand years of hundreds of wars. They tend to be more capable of fighting like hell and then letting it pass than we imagine in general. We westerners, conditioned by movies which always have a black hat and a white hat, don't have a similar legacy so we sometimes find it hard to grasp.

Perhaps no place better demonstrates this than Rwanda. Neighbors forgave and forgot next door neighbors who had come into their house with machetes and hacked half their family to death...and remain neighbors to this day, even friends. All but incomprehensible to us, but we don't have a recent legacy having to end tribal wars in which the "bad guys" are left still around...and not completely unbowed...or even defeated.

hmm good points.
Perhaps it also has something to do with the sense of collective survival in poorer countries.
You can fight like hell with your neighbour about politics or religion, but when all your survival is at risk from a common enemy like earthquakes, drought and typhoons, you drop the silly games and work together..and resume hostilities later maybe, or even forget about the hostilities until some politician needs an enemy again.
Wealthy western countries rarely need help from their "enemies" who tend to be poorer anyway.

 

[Mid]

I lived in Greece

drach a souvlaki days ?

 

[LB 15]

drach a souvlaki days ?

Dragon Skewer days? What manner of talk is this?

 

[ShortForBob]

drach a souvlaki days ?

Nothing is sacred. They've started wrapping chips in with a souvlaki even on the islands.
Cost a bit more than a drachma too.
Frankly, they're better in Brunswick .
Though I was a bit worried taking
One Jewish kid wearing an " I love Israel" T Shirt
and two gay skips into that Turkish/Greek Halal Soulvaki shop to get Halal Snack Packs.
at least it's one way to get a lamb souvlaki not pork or chicken.

Snack pack diplomacy.