Hater's Scorecard

[MauganTornado]

Lets go down the popular ones.

1) Oracle has stacked the deck against all the challengers with the Winged cat so that they have an insurmountable advantage.

I think ETNZ would beg to differ with you. Along with Artemis and Team Korea who beat Coutts.

2) Watching Multihulls will be just as boring as watching monohulls.

This one is pretty subjective - but I don't think I can ever go back to watching "plodding sloops" ever again on TV.

3) The only time you'll see the boats in the same frame is at the start and maybe the first mark rounding. There will never be any close crossings.

hahahahah... aaaaaaahahhahahaha...

4) There are no tactics in cats - tacking duels are a thing of the past.

See response to #3

5) Cats can't match race - there will be no dialups or pre-start tactics.

I'm willing to be reasonable and state that the the prestarts weren't as exciting but I'm not sure if it has to do with the cats or the way the course was setup.

6) Larry Ellison is Satan.

If you're talking about the way in which Oracle is going after google in court regarding Android's VM, then I'll agree. But I think that he's proven to be a savior-like figure for the vision he's brought to sailing.

Its too bad that when ETNZ wins it all, they're going to take it back to mono's.

Did I miss any of the haterade out there?

Ohhh forgot one!

7) The AC45's are going to pitchpole all over the place!

I saw Korea go bows in but they were nowhere near danger zone for a PP. Just enough to make it exciting.

 

[pjfranks]

Nope. We got the picture. You hate everyone who you think hates GGYC/OR? That must make you the biggest hater on the board then?

 

[MauganTornado]

Nope - In fact I'm pulling for Green Comm.

 

[pjfranks]

Nope - In fact I'm pulling for Green Comm.

Way to go. For a moment I thought you were pulling for yourself? Time we heard from the board's top kool-aid drinkers then?

 

[MauganTornado]

Sounds like someone has sour grapes from all of his preconceived notions being shattered.

 

[EaglesPDX]

To summarize.

AC34 1,000

Haters <0

If you're talking about the way in which Oracle is going after google in court regarding Android's VM, then I'll agree. But I think that he's proven to be a savior-like figure for the vision he's brought to sailing.

AC34 is partnering with YouTube/Google to present AC34

It's just business say Don Ellison.

 

[GBR1]

Lets go down the popular ones.

1) Oracle has stacked the deck against all the challengers with the Winged cat so that they have an insurmountable advantage.

I think ETNZ would beg to differ with you. Along with Artemis and Team Korea who beat Coutts. The advantage was never about the sailors. This is a design race and in that regard, OR has a big lead. A few races in a one design doesn't change that

2) Watching Multihulls will be just as boring as watching monohulls.

This one is pretty subjective - but I don't think I can ever go back to watching "plodding sloops" ever again on TV. Good match racing is good match racing, whatever boats. This was good, but i would watch 18 foot skiffs over this any day of the week. Reserve judgement until we have some real wind

3) The only time you'll see the boats in the same frame is at the start and maybe the first mark rounding. There will never be any close crossings.

hahahahah... aaaaaaahahhahahaha... When that was said, nobody knew they were going to create an artificial boundry to the course to keep the boats together.

4) There are no tactics in cats - tacking duels are a thing of the past.

See response to #3 Not sure I remember those words, although the boats did tack slowly and we didn't see the multiple tacking battles we used to see in the leadmines. Is that a bad thing? Maybe not.

5) Cats can't match race - there will be no dialups or pre-start tactics.

I'm willing to be reasonable and state that the the prestarts weren't as exciting but I'm not sure if it has to do with the cats or the way the course was setup. The entry was too late and the box is wrong. It could get a lot better.

6) Larry Ellison is Satan.

If you're talking about the way in which Oracle is going after google in court regarding Android's VM, then I'll agree. But I think that he's proven to be a savior-like figure for the vision he's brought to sailing. W That is the biggest stretch of the lot. The whole thing is still very unproven. I would love to know what you consider he has saved. So far, he has bought little that Mark Turner hasn't been doing for a while now, and based on the head to head we have just seen, I don't think Turner will be too unhappy.

Its too bad that when ETNZ wins it all, they're going to take it back to mono's.I am not sure that they will win and who knows what will happen in a few years time. Let's worry about that later!

Did I miss any of the haterade out there?

Ohhh forgot one!

7) The AC45's are going to pitchpole all over the place!

I saw Korea go bows in but they were nowhere near danger zone for a PP. Just enough to make it exciting. Come on! It takes a proper breeze to see them pitchpole. The biggest disappointment was the lack of wind. It's funny that Coutts fell out with EB over, amongst other things, not choosing Cascais because Coutts said it would provide better wind than Valencia. It certainly wasn't this week. I still bet that when we get the first proper breeze, 25 knots +, combined with SF like conditions, we will see some big crashes. Again, so what. They ahve them in the ESS and nobody seems to think it is bad.

Overall, a good first event spoilt by the light winds, the learning curve of the organisers with particular regard to the specialised equipment and more gear problems than some might have expected. The format needs sorting. The sudden death nature of the last 2 days is poor. Maybe if there were 2 hour races like, say, F1, a one race decider is OK but effectively we are talking about 40 minutes deciding a full week of sailing.

 

[nav]

Lets go down the popular ones.

1) Oracle has stacked the deck against all the challengers with the Winged cat so that they have an insurmountable advantage.

I think ETNZ would beg to differ with you. Along with Artemis and Team Korea who beat Coutts. The advantage was never about the sailors. This is a design race and in that regard, OR has a big lead. A few races in a one design doesn't change that

2) Watching Multihulls will be just as boring as watching monohulls.

This one is pretty subjective - but I don't think I can ever go back to watching "plodding sloops" ever again on TV. Good match racing is good match racing, whatever boats. This was good, but i would watch 18 foot skiffs over this any day of the week. Reserve judgement until we have some real wind

3) The only time you'll see the boats in the same frame is at the start and maybe the first mark rounding. There will never be any close crossings.

hahahahah... aaaaaaahahhahahaha... When that was said, nobody knew they were going to create an artificial boundry to the course to keep the boats together.

4) There are no tactics in cats - tacking duels are a thing of the past.

See response to #3 Not sure I remember those words, although the boats did tack slowly and we didn't see the multiple tacking battles we used to see in the leadmines. Is that a bad thing? Maybe not.

5) Cats can't match race - there will be no dialups or pre-start tactics.

I'm willing to be reasonable and state that the the prestarts weren't as exciting but I'm not sure if it has to do with the cats or the way the course was setup. The entry was too late and the box is wrong. It could get a lot better.

6) Larry Ellison is Satan.

If you're talking about the way in which Oracle is going after google in court regarding Android's VM, then I'll agree. But I think that he's proven to be a savior-like figure for the vision he's brought to sailing. W That is the biggest stretch of the lot. The whole thing is still very unproven. I would love to know what you consider he has saved. So far, he has bought little that Mark Turner hasn't been doing for a while now, and based on the head to head we have just seen, I don't think Turner will be too unhappy.

Its too bad that when ETNZ wins it all, they're going to take it back to mono's.I am not sure that they will win and who knows what will happen in a few years time. Let's worry about that later!

Did I miss any of the haterade out there?

Ohhh forgot one!

7) The AC45's are going to pitchpole all over the place!

I saw Korea go bows in but they were nowhere near danger zone for a PP. Just enough to make it exciting. Come on! It takes a proper breeze to see them pitchpole. The biggest disappointment was the lack of wind. It's funny that Coutts fell out with EB over, amongst other things, not choosing Cascais because Coutts said it would provide better wind than Valencia. It certainly wasn't this week. I still bet that when we get the first proper breeze, 25 knots +, combined with SF like conditions, we will see some big crashes. Again, so what. They ahve them in the ESS and nobody seems to think it is bad.

Overall, a good first event spoilt by the light winds, the learning curve of the organisers with particular regard to the specialised equipment and more gear problems than some might have expected. The format needs sorting. The sudden death nature of the last 2 days is poor. Maybe if there were 2 hour races like, say, F1, a one race decider is OK but effectively we are talking about 40 minutes deciding a full week of sailing.

But whatever format is used in deciding a full week of sailing, it counts for little more than bragging rights in the end. It may be that the 'all in this together' attitude and 'knowing on which side their bread is buttered on', means they even prefer that the honours be shared around in an almost random way - the better to ensure exposure for all teams and therefore a numerically stronger fleet and a 'commercially viable product'.

These guys are being treated like Kings (or Gladiators!). They have opened more Champagne bottles in the last few days than in the last few years, Jimmy has a nice new watch, there is a 2 year series stretching out in front of them with more logistical and technical assistance than they can probably believe. All they have to do is turn up and race 7 days out of 35 odd.

No wonder they are all grinning and so happy with themselves - very cool if they can make it sustainable!

What do you think?

 

[Xlot]

But whatever format is used in deciding a full week of sailing, it counts for little more than bragging rights in the end. It may be that the 'all in this together' attitude and 'knowing on which side their bread is buttered on', means they even prefer that the honours be shared around in an almost random way, the better to ensure exposure for all teams and therefore a numerically stronger fleet and a 'commercially viable product'.

What do you think?

I think you're right. Supremely well put.

 

[pjfranks]

But whatever format is used in deciding a full week of sailing, it counts for little more than bragging rights in the end. It may be that the 'all in this together' attitude and 'knowing on which side their bread is buttered on', means they even prefer that the honours be shared around in an almost random way, the better to ensure exposure for all teams and therefore a numerically stronger fleet and a 'commercially viable product'.

What do you think?

I think you're right. Supremely well put.

There's that frigging "product" again formerly known as "sport" to the rest of us but now a exclusive GGYC "product". That's all WS is about and the AC circus. The idiot wonks at ACEA think it is an advertising campaign. Did anyone at GGYC/ACEA dare tell the sailors that they are not actually sailing yachts but placing "product"?

 

[NaturalLime]

6) Larry Ellison is Satan.

If you're talking about the way in which Oracle is going after google in court regarding Android's VM, then I'll agree. But I think that he's proven to be a savior-like figure for the vision he's brought to sailing.

Google bet that Sun wouldn't sue over Java patent infringement and fragmentation issues and they were right. Then Oracle bought Sun. Oops.

 

[Stingray]

But whatever format is used in deciding a full week of sailing, it counts for little more than bragging rights in the end. It may be that the 'all in this together' attitude and 'knowing on which side their bread is buttered on', means they even prefer that the honours be shared around in an almost random way, the better to ensure exposure for all teams and therefore a numerically stronger fleet and a 'commercially viable product'.

What do you think?

I think you're right. Supremely well put.

+1, and nothing at all wrong with any of that. It is in everyone's best interests the ACWS, the LVC, and the AC do well. Look at all the effort the helmsmen, and others, happily put into fielding interviews, how generous they are in trying to answer often silly questions put to them. They understand all this too.

Thread drifting now from how badly the 'haters' have gotten so many predictions wrong (too long a subject, really!), but:

I like having two different audio broadcasts. I hope that they will diverge even more so than what the first few days have seen.

Make the 'Sailors' channel increasingly the more hard-core sailor commentary. Get so technical that even many of us who follow closely will scratch our heads at times. Get various designer types talking, other MR medalists, 'old school' grinders, other fleet MHers, for more color; let's hear some different 'language' used.

Let the A channel go on about explanations to 'the masses.' If the media gurus think PJM tests well for that 'new' audience well then I suppose they will keep him on that broadcast, okay fine. A minor nit for me is GT getting switched between the two; would prefer to hear her without PJM but then Peter and Rob do a pretty fair job on the B channel when together, so not too big a loss there and I suppose GT really is able to play well to a mass audience and so they see value in having her there talking comfortably in kilometers and front sails and basically engaging in the new-speak.

Minor observation: We saw a little of it in AC Uncovered Episode 3 but there have been no shots that I can recall of the announcers themselves during the livecasts. That's okay with me but it is a little 'event - unusual' to not see them at least introduce themselves before starting in to describing the action.

I also think it reasonable to expect personnel changes in back office, production, broadcasters, shore teams, and even sailing teams, going forward. It's a long haul, this is just a start. Everyone will be looking to improve the game, perhaps that's why there are no broadcast 'the faces of the event' being posterized just yet. They are 'competing' in a sense too, with a long way to go.

 

[pjfranks]

Thread drifting now from how badly the 'haters' have gotten so many predictions wrong (too long a subject, really!), but:

This "haters" thing is a peculiarly american concept SR. There are plenty of GGYC supporters who hate anything that conflicts with the GGYC fan dream. So this thread really is a double-edged sword.

 

[nav]

But whatever format is used in deciding a full week of sailing, it counts for little more than bragging rights in the end. It may be that the 'all in this together' attitude and 'knowing on which side their bread is buttered on', means they even prefer that the honours be shared around in an almost random way, the better to ensure exposure for all teams and therefore a numerically stronger fleet and a 'commercially viable product'.

What do you think?

I think you're right. Supremely well put.

There's that frigging "product" again formerly known as "sport" to the rest of us but now a exclusive GGYC "product". That's all WS is about and the AC circus. The idiot wonks at ACEA think it is an advertising campaign. Did anyone at GGYC/ACEA dare tell the sailors that they are not actually sailing yachts but placing "product"?

Yeah we all feel the same whenever anything we are invested in is taken and sold as a 'product'. I use the term advisedly (and in speech marks!) because I am discussing the motivations of those setting the formats etc, rather than those of us 'consuming' them!

 

[Stingray]

Thread drifting now from how badly the 'haters' have gotten so many predictions wrong (too long a subject, really!), but:

This "haters" thing is a peculiarly american concept SR. There are plenty of GGYC supporters who hate anything that conflicts with the GGYC fan dream. So this thread really is a double-edged sword.

I don't much care for the 'haters' term either, to me it smacks of Rove and Rumsfeld - seems to me they are who 'popularized' it, during basically a very divisive war campaign propaganda. That is ~not~ what any of this 'great game' here is about - thankfully!

But as to 'GGYC fans' - or more widely AC in SF fans - or however you want to categorize various people looking forward to AC34: There are arguably good elements in this new format to be jazzed about. Plenty of shots were taken at it, and many of them have already fallen by the wayside as things have progressed. The most obvious is in the growing acceptance that multihulls can be a good AC platform, you see that becoming a far more open minded discussion now compared to this time last year when there were so many indignant outcries. Start with the journo's who, let's face it, are opinion leaders to their audiences: you can argue they are just 'bought out' and 'drinking the koolaid' in the case of PJM (practically spat venom in his opinions on mono's versus multihulls until recently, may even still harbor it), Pierre at VS (has gone back and forth, loved it when Alinghi was for it, hated it after they lost, loves it now that he's on board with Green Comm); one might even argue that RG's about-turn has coincided with ETNZ's success in it; I could go on with the 'converted.'

The people who matter most if this is going to be a fun AC34 for us all to follow, the Challengers themselves, are on board, 'drinking the cool aid' as it were, or they would not be gunning ahead. Well guess what? Were I challenging, I would be drinking it in as fast as possible. You'd need to drink in and breathe this brave new stage play, enjoy it as sailors, as designers, as whatever your roles are. Immerse in it, excel in getting as good at the game as possible. Criticism? Sure, part of the game too. But there's little room for sideline 'haters' - they can and will continue to just fall by the wayside as their attention drifts to elsewhere; as their arguments become as mirage-like as those phantom wmd's in the desert.

This opening ACWS event in these wingsailed AC45's rocked! The discourse remaining is about the relatively smaller details of course configurations, broadcast commenters, camera angles, Live Line data displays: basically, all about the good shit. The 'greater' argument has already won.

 

[Te Kooti]

One might even argue that RG's about-turn has coincided with ETNZ's success in it; I could go on with the 'converted.'

A lot of people (inc. me) changed churches after they saw the boat. I think RG was very open about what he was thinking.

So, I do not think there are major worries about the boat.

And nor is there any guarantee TNZ would switch back to monos after winning AC34.

The big worry now concerns what they intend to do with these boats.

Chequered flags, hawking "product" and yapping about kilometes per hour is, along with other things, the main worry.

Plus the possibility of very few competitors for 2013 (although, after Cascais, new sponsors will hopefully appear)..

 

[dogwatch]

These guys are being treated like Kings (or Gladiators!). They have opened more Champagne bottles in the last few days than in the last few years, Jimmy has a nice new watch, there is a 2 year series stretching out in front of them with more logistical and technical assistance than they can probably believe. All they have to do is turn up and race 7 days out of 35 odd.

Quite so. There's a British metaphor about the unlikelihood of turkeys voting for Christmas. Not sure it translates into American English but turkey plays the same part in a traditional British Christmas as it does in Thanksgiving.

No wonder they are all grinning and so happy with themselves - very cool if they can make it sustainable!

It's the sustainability around which my critique centres. I've enjoyed Cascais. I watched several hours of it. But look at the YouTube viewing numbers. They range from just a few hundred to just over 10,000. To put that into some context, a friend put an amusing video of his dog watching television onto YouTube. You've never watched it, you've never heard of it, but that's attracted over 17,000 views. Bloody hell, the sailors' mums and girl-friends watching ought to be pushing the figures well past 10,000. Whatever happens, in the long term, LE isn't going to be bearing the cost of this circus and there is absolutely no indication it's self-sustaining even at the AC45 level, let alone AC72 where the costs are an order of magnitude higher.

 

[pjfranks]

These guys are being treated like Kings (or Gladiators!). They have opened more Champagne bottles in the last few days than in the last few years, Jimmy has a nice new watch, there is a 2 year series stretching out in front of them with more logistical and technical assistance than they can probably believe. All they have to do is turn up and race 7 days out of 35 odd.

Quite so. There's a British metaphor about the unlikelihood of turkeys voting for Christmas. Not sure it translates into American English but turkey plays the same part in a traditional British Christmas as it does in Thanksgiving.

No wonder they are all grinning and so happy with themselves - very cool if they can make it sustainable!

It's the sustainability around which my critique centres. I've enjoyed Cascais. I watched several hours of it. But look at the YouTube viewing numbers. They range from just a few hundred to just over 10,000. To put that into some context, a friend put an amusing video of his dog watching television onto YouTube. You've never watched it, you've never heard of it, but that's attracted over 17,000 views. Bloody hell, the sailors' mums and girl-friends watching ought to be pushing the figures well past 10,000. Whatever happens, in the long term, LE isn't going to be bearing the cost of this circus and there is absolutely no indication it's self-sustaining even at the AC45 level, let alone AC72 where the costs are an order of magnitude higher.

More to the point perhaps is that if LE/Coutts can't make the circus pay for itself it won't survive in the hands of a new defender.

 

[dogwatch]

More to the point perhaps is that if LE/Coutts can't make the circus pay for itself it won't survive in the hands of a new defender.

Indeed, that's what I said. Whether there's a new defender or whether LE loses the inclination to keep writing the cheques, in the not very distant future this circus has to pay for itself or finish.