Have Torqueedo Outboards Come of Age Yet

[Pertinacious Tom]

I decided to try out the ePropulsion Spirit on my little aluminum boat. My dad bought this boat new before I was born. I've operated it with a 3, a 3.5, a 5, an 8, a 9.9, a 10, and a 15 hp outboard over the years.

After I went back to the house to fetch the magnetic kill switch, it worked perfectly.

Went 5 knots at full power. That's not quite equivalent to a 3 hp gas engine, but very close. Should be plenty of power for the Picnic Cat.

On the shaft length question, the salesman told me that XS (extra short) is what all other engines call S, or short. An ePropulsion S is equivalent to any other outboard's L.

Tape measure says...

Tohatsu 5 hp with 20 inch shaft. The shaft is about a foot off my concrete floor.

Didn't move the boat or the motor bracket for this pic:

So the prop shaft sits about 3 inches higher than the long shaft Tohatsu. No cavitation plate on this motor. It looks like it will be deep enough with the bracket all the way down.

Rain all day today followed by too much wind for a day or two, so I expect to try it out on the Picnic Cat one day next week.

 

[Bull City]

Recently, I went from a Torqeedo Travel 1003 outboard to an ePropulsion Pod Drive 3.0. I believe the 1003 refers to the output in Watts, and the 3.0 is Kilowatts.

Anyhow, the boat is 27.25' LOA, 20.7' LWL, 7.3' Beam, 3,200 lbs. Disp. I went for a spin today under power. There was a brisk side wind. The Watts & Knots were:



This is a little better than with the Torqeedo (sorry for not having Apples to Apples):



The eP is a 48v system, the Torqeedo is 24v. Would you say the eP is more efficient?

 

[TwoLegged]

Would you say the eP is more efficient?

More data points would help ... but as afar as I can see, the closest comparison is:

EP: 500W / 3.6kt
Torqeedo: 560W . / 3.5 kt

So the EP is the clear winner at the ~500W power level.

The comparison is hard to make at other levels, but the most interesting thing to me is how rapidly power consumption increases once you exceed to 3.5kt speed.   Hull speed is about 6 knots, so for that hull the sweet point is maybe a little more than half hull speed

 

[weightless]

The eP is a 48v system, the Torqeedo is 24v. Would you say the eP is more efficient?

Torqeedo is also 48v IIRC. I think in both cases power is rated going into the motor. Conventional outboards are rated at the prop shaft.

It looks like the eP system is a touch more efficient but there are a great many confounding factors. Here's your data on a graph:

 

[Bull City]

The readings are a bit squirrelly. On the display Watts and Knots tend to fluctuate quite a bit. I want to try it again on a glassy day.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

So the prop shaft sits about 3 inches higher than the long shaft Tohatsu. No cavitation plate on this motor. It looks like it will be deep enough with the bracket all the way down.

Rain all day today followed by too much wind for a day or two, so I expect to try it out on the Picnic Cat one day next week.

Finally got to try my new epropulsion on the toy catboat yesterday. It's great and my wife's reaction was that she wants electric motors on all our boats. So I guess I'm in the market for a 175 hp now. Can't imagine what that battery pack will cost.

Anyway, the first question was about cavitation. I know, it's ventilation, but I have always called it cavitation and won't stop. Moving from the boat ramp to the Sailing Center's floating dock, I got up some speed then went to full reverse. It did slurp a bit of air down from the surface, but only because I hit the throttle so hard. Easily controllable if I should have to panic-stop.

Next question was about power. More than enough. Makes the boat squat just like too much gas outboard power does. It could power a substantially bigger sailboat.

Next question was about chop. Yes, if a good sized boat comes planing by in shallow water, resulting in a very steep wake, the pitching briefly brings the prop close enough to suck air from the surface, even at fairly low power. If using one of these in a place where I'd have to power though lots of chop, I'd definitely want the long shaft one.

Next question was about motorsailing. It was a perfect day for this. Gusts up to about 10 occasionally but mostly 5-8. A Picnic Cat can sail in that, but very slowly. I used just a bit of power from the motor and it worked great! Keeping speed in the lulls, tighter tacking angles, regaining speed after that boat wake, all better. My wife was trolling a spoon and picked up a little ladyfish. At very low power, the boat has to be really quiet to be able to detect the faint hum of the motor.

I didn't recharge the battery pack after my short test on the aluminum boat. Ran it well over an hour, mostly at very low speed while trolling. As we were coming in, I experimented a bit with the digital readout that estimates time remaining at the current power setting. At the low trolling speed, it was saying over 8 hours. At higher power, like I'd use to move into some wind and chop, it was saying 2.5 hours. At full power, it was saying 50 minutes. No idea yet how accurate all of that is, but the practical answer is that it has plenty of power to get out, troll around for a while if the wind isn't strong enough to troll under sail, then get back in to the ramp. That's all I'll ever ask of it.

Some guys came to sail Sunfish yesterday and Dennis took one of their friends out in our boat for a little introduction to sailing. It's a great boat for that, has a bit of the feel of sailing but it's pretty well impossible to scare someone with a Picnic Cat. She loved it. I flew my drone.

 

[Ajax]

I figured I'd add my little experiment to this thread rather than clog up the forum with a new one:

I just got back from 4 days of sailing where I ran my engine for a grand total of 35 minutes to make hot water for the fresh water system.

I ordered a 100ah lithium battery weighing 24lbs. for my dinghy propulsion. I have two dinks- a Dyer 9' and an Achilles 9'. I had the Dyer with me this weekend and my 30lb thrust trolling motor.

The battery was brought to me new, in the box. It ships with a 30% charge. I zipped around the mooring field in my Dyer with as many as 4 people on Saturday, Sunday and Monday and still didn't drain it. A piddly, 30lb thrust motor makes a Dyer dinghy positively fly at 80% throttle.

The next phase of my experiment will entail purchasing a 50lb thrust motor and putting it on the Achilles. I'll fully charge the battery and makes notes of top speeds and I'll use a GPS to observe the range obtained. I'll be installing an onboard 20 amp, DC-DC Renogy charger for this battery. It will parasite off of the house bank and I'll add some additional solar capacity to support this.

I believe my Firefly AGM's are helpful in this situation. They accept a very deep discharge without complaint. They accept a very high rate of charge which means that if I do have to run my engine to help with this additional load, it will only be for very short periods. I ran all of my house loads during this trip and never got below 67%. 4 days of very short daylight hours and one of those days was completely overcast.

Why am I going to all this trouble?
Because I'm very unhappy with the reports of Torqueedo failures and customer support. I'm unhappy with the cost despite the power and potential range of the Torqueedo. The Torqueedo is a sleek package with a floating battery, no doubt.

I purchased my trolling motor for $50 bucks and it's served me for years without fail. The lithium battery cost me $299. I could buy TWO of these damned things and still come out way ahead. If the trolling motor fails, I'll find another on Craigslist or FB market place for $80 and be on my way.

 

[fufkin]

Forgot about this thread. I don’t know if Torqueedo has come of age, but it looks like trolling motors sure have.

Ive sometimes idly wondered about the potential of a long stemmed retractable outboard as a bow or stern thruster. Ideally, they’d be removed during sailing. This would apply mainly to high performance (racer cruisers), whether a trimaran or a wide bodied twin rudder ulbd monohull, where neither the performance hit of a bow thruster nor the complexity of a retractable one is desirable, but short handed docking can be a challenge in certain conditions.

Waddya think? Crazy idea or worth a look? These guys can basically dial in a gps holding position remotely...they have Hinckley Pilot joystick level of control for a few boat bucks. Not bad...

Long-Shaft Electric Trolling Motors

Trolling motors with longer shafts are making offshore anglers think about using electric propulsion for offshore fishing.

www.sportfishingmag.com

 

[Ajax]

A little update- Yesterday, I scored a Minn Kota 50lb. thrust motor for $90. This is nearly twice as powerful as my other trolling motor. This will allow me to test different configurations. Such as:

• Is the extra power worth the weight?
• Does the more powerful motor necessarily reduce the range?

Fun facts:

• A Honda 2hp 4 stroke weighs 27 lbs. A 5 gallon fuel tank will weigh 35lbs. when full for a total of 62 lbs.
• The Minn Kota 50lb thrust weighs 20 lbs. The battery weighs 24 lbs. for a total of 44 lbs.

(Yes, I know that 5 gallons of gasoline will go much farther than a 100ah battery.)

If I get out of work on time today, I can hopefully perform a range test with the inflatable. I have recharged the battery.

 

[Jim in Halifax]

Fun facts:

• A Honda 2hp 4 stroke weighs 27 lbs. A 5 gallon fuel tank will weigh 35lbs. when full for a total of 62 lbs.
• The Minn Kota 50lb thrust weighs 20 lbs. The battery weighs 24 lbs. for a total of 44 lbs.

This is a real apples and oranges comparison. For one, the Honda has an on-board gas tank and doesn't need the 5 gallon tank; the Minn Kota does need the separate battery to run.

 

[Ajax]

This is a real apples and oranges comparison. For one, the Honda has an on-board gas tank and doesn't need the 5 gallon tank; the Minn Kota does need the separate battery to run.

Yes, I'm aware that the comparison isn't perfect. How many miles do you think you get from the onboard fuel tank? Do you think serious cruisers that are forced to anchor far out would limit themselves to the onboard tank? I don't.

Ok, let's say that a Honda 2hp with a full internal tank and no external tank weighs 35lbs. (1 gallon of fuel at 5 lbs.)
The electric rig weighs 44 lbs.

 

[Ajax]

I think I'm going to be stuck not getting any useful data until next year. The days are too short and cold weather is moving in which will impact battery capacity. I did run a brief test yesterday and here's what I got:

Using the Achillies 9' dinghy and the 12v 50lb. thrust motor, I was able to travel 2.5 miles before I ran out of daylight and had to stop. Temperatures dropped into the 50's while I was performing the test. Breeze and current were negligible. I ran the motor exclusively at speed #4 and some 5 minute bursts at #5 to test the max speed.

Speed setting #4 propelled me to 2.2 to 2.5 knots.
Speed setting #5 (maximum) propelled me to 3.3 knots.

After 30 minutes of rest, the battery indicated 90%. Lithium batteries don't suffer from the same Peurket's factor that lead batteries do.
If you extrapolate 2.5 miles per 10% of battery capacity, that's 25 miles at approximately 2.2 knots.
Because there is a voltage drop off as the battery nears depletion, I'll agree that the battery will probably only provide 20 miles of range in optimal conditions at settings #3 or #4.

• Let me state that I don't actually believe my own numbers. I want to run this test in warmer weather next spring to see what REALLY happens, when I run the battery to real life depletion.

A few notes:

• If you own a 35 foot or larger boat that can carry a large dinghy with an 8hp+ outboard, this method is not for you.
• If speed is your goal, this method is not for you. The Achilles 9' rows like shit and it's like shoving a submerged balloon through the water.
• This arrangement is most efficient if you tune the motor pod so that the least amount of motor shaft is in the water, causing drag.
• There is no speed improvement with a 50lb thrust motor over a 30lb. thrust motor. It just gives you additional thrust against foul wind and current. The weight of the Achilles would seem to indicate that the 50lb motor is better for shoving that much weight (plus people and gear).
• Propellers: You can swap 'em but the speed improvements seem negligible for the extra power consumed.
• The Dyer 9' is much faster, about 5 knots and would use much less energy to push if I had to travel a long distance. It also rows much better, which means that a motor is less necessary.

For MY current use case, this arrangement seems adequate. There are certain trips where I prefer to use my Achilles inflatable rather than my Dyer 9'. Since the Achilles rows so badly, a motor is a good idea. I absolutely refuse to carry a gasoline outboard. All I'm trying to do, is get from an anchorage or mooring to a dinghy dock. Most of the time, this is a one or two mile round trip. Sometimes I have enough people or gear in my dinghy that rowing is physically awkward and a motor would be preferable.

If you can live with traveling at a walking or jogging pace, this is a perfectly adequate solution for only $400.00, all-in. An e-Propulsion Spirit 1.0 is hands down, faster and longer range but costs $2600+. Whether the investment is worth it, is an individual choice.

 

[Knox Harrington]

Just bought one at the beginning of summer and cruised New England with it for 5 weeks. I'm never going back to a gas motor. We got a 603 for our 10' dinghy. No planing, but it starts every damn time, so I love it. If it gets low on batt, I throw it inside on charge. I can even store it inside the boat without getting fuel everywhere! Imagine that. Game changer if you ask me. Just expensive.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Forgot about this thread. I don’t know if Torqueedo has come of age, but it looks like trolling motors sure have.

Ive sometimes idly wondered about the potential of a long stemmed retractable outboard as a bow or stern thruster. Ideally, they’d be removed during sailing. This would apply mainly to high performance (racer cruisers), whether a trimaran or a wide bodied twin rudder ulbd monohull, where neither the performance hit of a bow thruster nor the complexity of a retractable one is desirable, but short handed docking can be a challenge in certain conditions.

Waddya think? Crazy idea or worth a look? These guys can basically dial in a gps holding position remotely...they have Hinckley Pilot joystick level of control for a few boat bucks. Not bad... View attachment 551744

Long-Shaft Electric Trolling Motors

Trolling motors with longer shafts are making offshore anglers think about using electric propulsion for offshore fishing.

www.sportfishingmag.com

I have a 36 volt one on the new fishing boat. It pulls the boat at 3 knots into wind in the teens with small chop. The base is permanently mounted but I can pull a pin and pull the power plug and bring it indoors. I'll likely never do it. That's to prevent theft and clear the deck on non-fishing days. Removing it is easy. Finding where it lives inside a sailboat would not be.

 

[nota]

any body try the tim tayor MORE power =MORE VOLTS
on the cheaper used trollers motors


some of the the bigger ones are 24v I have collected
odd setups for foot steering and speed control
others just the bottom motor and prop after controls failed

I am thinking honda generator big single claims 13hp and 10k watts
to power used golfcart 48 v chargers to the 24v motor
why because my boat semi-sank
so I pull a small 2 banger diesel now rusty lump of scrap
so room for the honda gen that I have and can use with the charger I have from an old cart until I get a big lot of LiPFe cells that I do not have
and play to learn how much cells are needed to go how far how fast ect
I guess a good amp meter is a ruff HP reading minus the losses
I have a collection of 24v troller units and can destruction test with out tears and swap as needed as most are 20 buck yard sail units
I have no plans to run them long just bridges and narrow up wind cuts maybe 15 min max

if one HP at 24v it should made two[ish] at 48v ruffly for same weight mounts ect just a question of will it live a while at higher volts

we will see

 

[guerdon]

I got an Epropulsion out board for my Mull mini-ton. It is very well made and is simple to use. I sold the boat because of the motor. It made getting out of the slip simple, we are surrounded by racers with Harbour 20s and they have a very clever electric trolling drive but the voltage controllers burn out quickly. I believe if you had a Tremolino, or other fast hull you could sail/motor and recharge the battery above 7knots, This then becomes a whole new world for simple overnight trips, since the battery packs are small and easily stowed I bet one could go for days. This is like the Jetsons.

 

[nota]

ONE OTHER ODD IDEA

tool battery 18 to 60volt at several amps
for simple back up short use power
I have 18 v at 4 6 and 9 amps for small tools
and have used one when the 12v lead/acid ran out to power a few hundred yards
and a 40v 4 amp pack for a chainsaw or weedwacker
that could be used on a 36 or 48 v system for a few minutes

why because you may have them so no added costs

 

[Kolibri]

I'm looking at picking up a ePropulsion Spirit outboard to push either an Achilles inflatable or a nesting dinghy. Any horror stories on ePropulsion vs Torqeedo that I should be aware of before pressing the "buy" button?

 

[Bull City]

I'm looking at picking up a ePropulsion Spirit outboard to push either an Achilles inflatable or a nesting dinghy. Any horror stories on ePropulsion vs Torqeedo that I should be aware of before pressing the "buy" button?

Take a look at the ePropulsion Outboard Owners FB page:

Official ePropulsion Outboard Owners | Facebook

Welcome to Official ePropulsion Outboard Owners Group! This group is created to gather global ePropulsion outboard owners together. Members in this group are encouraged to make friends and share...

www.facebook.com

I have an ePropulsion pod drive, and before that a Torqeedo OB. I was happy with the Torqeedo, and have been very happy with the eP pod drive, but I'm in fresh water. Read the FB page, and see what you think about an eP OB in salt water.

 

[Kolibri]

Take a look at the ePropulsion Outboard Owners FB page:

Official ePropulsion Outboard Owners | Facebook

Welcome to Official ePropulsion Outboard Owners Group! This group is created to gather global ePropulsion outboard owners together. Members in this group are encouraged to make friends and share...

www.facebook.com

I have an ePropulsion pod drive, and before that a Torqeedo OB. I was happy with the Torqeedo, and have been very happy with the eP pod drive, but I'm in fresh water. Read the FB page, and see what you think about an eP OB in salt water.

I will check out the FB page. Thanks!

 

[TBW]

I did a Torqeedo test today. My first Torqeedo was a 1003 which I sold a couple of years ago, just replaced it with an 1103- What a difference a generation makes. Test was on a 900 pound 21 ft Bay Hen sailboat with 4 people on board over 10 miles of motoring on a river. The motor performed flawlessly. It's replacing a Honda 2.3. both motors would push this boat to hull speed but the Torqeedos low end performance for docking and maneuvering was much much better. The 1103 seems like about a perfect match for this boat.