Help me spec a new rig

Snowden

Super Anarchist
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How much do you expect to pay for this new rig and new sails for this 24 year old boat? It begins to approach reasonable cost to performance question. With the rig, the hull will have to be tightened and refreshed. Still leaves you with an older one off that takes serious phrf hits.
All of which would be relevant if racing on a different continent under phrf ;-). The IRC rule is pretty conservative in this size range and our rating is pretty fair.

My assumption is you can get this done <£20k, which is a lot cheaper than buying a new boat.

 
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Black Jack

Super Anarchist
20K Including new sails? and a hull refit? Maybe DIY and used from a donor boat...

Having recently come off a 1D35 refresh -  you think can be done can but the cost go up and up approach 2/3s of a new boat with ratings which make it difficult to compete in our groups.

 
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Snowden

Super Anarchist
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If it's more it's more but I'm not sure what this hull refit you are talking about is...

 

canstead

Anarchist
906
47
And if you decided to replace it with a new boat instead of a rig... you wouldn't be owning a Projection 920, which would bad.

I've nothing more to add.  I'm just here because I covet your boat.  DM if you decide to sell!!!!!

 

Black Jack

Super Anarchist
If it's more it's more but I'm not sure what this hull refit you are talking about is...
I am only guessing but I do not think you you were the first owner of this vessel. You/we have only educated guesses on her use and history. Cosmetically things may appear fine but hide other problems.

You are changing the loads on the boat, mast fittings and new chainplates will need to be addressed, things repositioned. Increased loads from a new rig on the old boat will stress the hull. Moreover the boat will need some deck work and weak spots redone. wisdom suggests if you are going to change the loads - the keel should be dropped and bolts inspected. 

 
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Snowden

Super Anarchist
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You are changing the loads on the boat, mast fittings and new chainplates will need to be addressed, things repositioned. A 24 year old boat will need some deck work and weak spots redone. wisdom suggests if you are going to change the loads - a keel should be dropped and bolts inspected. 
I think you may overstate the scope of the exercise here. The chainplates were done in 2009-10 w/naval architect oversight. I've owned the boat for a good few years so know the condition well.

If it was cost effective it wouldn't be yacht racing.

 
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Black Jack

Super Anarchist
I think you may have misunderstood the scope of the exercise here. The new rig will be substantially the same as the old rig that was up since 1997 and no change since the chainplates were moved in 2009-10 (w/ naval architect oversight).

If it was cost effective it wouldn't be yacht racing.
I saw you posted turboing the boat, getting new sails, using carbon fiber and replacement of the olds and ends that all add up.  My only point was that making those changes will extend your budget and time. I was also suggesting when you begin to do that you might as well do the other things that make the boat better in safety factors and will deliver the performance in all conditions.

Rather than do that, could you just replace the standing rigging, get new performance sails for the existing rig, updated the cockpit controls, paint the original the mast and boom for quite similar performance leaving more beer and crew party money?

In the end it is about yacht racing. there is always someone faster and better  than you in your class. Enjoy the moments with best mates.

 
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Snowden

Super Anarchist
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I saw you posted turboing the boat, getting new sails, using carbon fiber and replacement of the olds and ends that all add up.  My only point was that making those changes will extend your budget and time. I was also suggesting when you begin to do that you might as well do the other things that make the boat better in safety factors and will deliver the performance in all conditions.

Rather than do that, could you just replace the standing rigging, got new performance sails for the existing rig, updated the cockpit controls, paint the original the mast and boom for quite similar performance leaving more beer and crew party money?
Ah, see what you are saying. The idea is not to turbo - the boat is powered up enough shorthanded and we sail in a reasonably windy venue (Solent).

New white sails will happen either way and I think the current stick is dead, which narrows the range of decisions.

A little beer money goes a long way when you sail solo ;-)

 

canstead

Anarchist
906
47
Mr Rigger to Owner:  "That rig is dead.  It's an ex rig"

"No it's not, its a new rig!"

"No its not.  that's the old rig that I condemned, you've just painted it"

"Ahh, but It's special paint.  It's very strong"

"No it's not.  It's paint"

 

Frogman56

Anarchist
583
119
Sydney
Cmon!

Optimized for dual purpose:

1. Put the chain plates on the gunwale.

2. Fuck off the overlappers.

3. Put inner forestay to 2nd spreader.

4. Acquire Solent jib for said stay.

5. Solent should be in range at ~ 20 tws, specially in rough water.

6 If you can get carbon tube.

7. Go smashthem.

The yacht will sail better and rate lower. To optimise you may need to shift the headstay forward and make the commensurately longer, approximately in the ratio E:J

Capiche?

 

Snowden

Super Anarchist
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UK
3. Put inner forestay to 2nd spreader.

4. Acquire Solent jib for said stay.

5. Solent should be in range at ~ 20 tws, specially in rough water.
Great idea, definitely one to investigate when speccing the rig. J is quite short so not sure how efficient the solent would be but assume could use the same fittings for a spin staysail? I like the Dehler 30od version which I think is furling solent w/ no fixed inner forestay.

dehler-30-one-design-photo-exterieur-2019-dehler-30-one-design_2179739644995794776_768_0_0.jpg


 

Frogman56

Anarchist
583
119
Sydney
All good, the Dehler set is a good boatshow look, but you need wire inner fs at around 60% of J. With just a big open terminal at the deck.   That would be mostly hand wound..

With the overall rig set at low range settings, and a few other tricks, you can get a setup for 8 to 35 that is exerent!!

Frog

 

canstead

Anarchist
906
47
Hold on a mo!  A solent and a staysail are not the same thing.  A solent, as used on Dehler 30 or Pogo 30, is a big assed jib still.  It is a shit load bigger than 60% of J, it goes higher than a 2nd spreader (both Dehler and Pogo use an intermediate hound, not a spreader base).  Just think about it: 20knots wind is a normal J3 range, which is roughly a flat 95-100% size.

If you are going Solent, to get a big enough sail the stay is a long way forward and high, especially if you want it to work for 20 knots.  Therefore practically it has to be removable, or your big jib is a furler and you furl it to tack.

A Stay sail can work at 60%, but it's practical use as a standalone upwind sail is 30 knots (J4+) but it can be permanent, and the big jib should tack around it.

 

Frogman56

Anarchist
583
119
Sydney
How many angels on the head of da pin?

Pure short-handed setup as indicated with  (nominally) hanked 3 on ordinary forestay. With a ~ 600mm reef.

For most designs, good to around 22 tws, shorthanded, +/_ main reef.

Then the Solent thingy, well balanced with 1 or 2 reefs, and ok with 3.

Adjust for full crew RM?

 

Snowden

Super Anarchist
1,164
631
UK
i just see dollar (£) signs at this point. will stick to my two sail knitting

 

canstead

Anarchist
906
47
Yes, with your short J, I would go with the reefable no.3, and then have a racey 1/2 for fully crewed if you do much of it.

I think Frogman's "Small Solent" (shhh, it's really a staysail) will get used 1 day a year, and you'll have a permanent inner stay to arse around with.

 

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