HobieOne with Laser rigging

[CaptainAhab]

Why? Seems to work well on both of mine. All I have to do is correct settings to reduce weather helm.

12kts is nothing. The dinghys were all designed to sail well in 10-12kts. The Laser was designed for under 10kt Canadian lake sailing. That is why it is overpowered at 17kts. It's not about working well in your boat. I'm concerned about you ripping the deck/mast step off. I had it happen to one of my old Laser's.

 

[Henry Hester]

12kts is nothing. The dinghys were all designed to sail well in 10-12kts. The Laser was designed for under 10kt Canadian lake sailing. That is why it is overpowered at 17kts. It's not about working well in your boat. I'm concerned about you ripping the deck/mast step off. I had it happen to one of my old Laser's.

Got it. Mast step concerns.

To me, it looks pretty robust in the Hobie and the mast/deck depth is almost exactly the same as the Laser. It’s holding water in the step and I’m not getting leaks into either boat. So far so good. I don’t have $7000 into either setup so a 100% fail on the bay would be embarrassing at worst.

 

[Henry Hester]

On the bay

 

[ortegakid]

HH, that is my concern also, if you got a Rooster or sqaure top main like Hansen, might be better, as it looks like not enough mast rake, but jib looks great size, etc.

 

[Henry Hester]

HH, that is my concern also, if you got a Rooster or sqaure top main like Hansen, might be better, as it looks like not enough mast rake, but jib looks great size, etc.

I actually made the second mast. Bought some 6061 T6 tubing ($180) of correct size and a mast/boom plastic kit ($135) from WestCoast Sailing. Works great.

 

[ortegakid]

NOW NEED SQUARE TOP MAIN!

 

[Henry Hester]

NOW NEED SQUARE TOP MAIN!

I need $800

 

[Henry Hester]

 

[ortegakid]

EXACTLY, but batten tensioned correctly, will share mine, MAST IS BIG TIME RAKED.

 

[Admiral Hornblower]

that looks sick! awesome project man!

 

[Henry Hester]

My latest goal is understanding weather helm, sail, Cunningham, daggerboard and outhaul trimming to elevate some fierce weatherhelm.

 

[Henry Hester]

My latest goal is understanding weather helm, sail, Cunningham, daggerboard and outhaul trimming to elevate some fierce weatherhelm.

I meant alleviate

 

[Bill5]

My latest goal is understanding weather helm, sail, Cunningham, daggerboard and outhaul trimming to elevate some fierce weatherhelm.

I am afraid the solution is going to be more difficult than a few adjustments. How is the helm on the boat with the jib? Since you didn’t mention it, I am assuming it is okay. That is because the jib moves the centre of effort forward. If you have excessive weather helm with the main only, the centre of effort is too far back. So you need to move it forward. This can be accomplished a few ways:
1) raking the mast forward, which is likely not possible
2) moving the mast step forward, which is totally impractical
3) putting on a smaller sail with a shorter foot - like the original sail
4) add a jib. Which you have successfully done!
I think single handing with the jib would be fun.
I suppose you could move the centre of lateral resistance back. But a big hassle

 

[JimC]

I suppose you could move the centre of lateral resistance back. But a big hassle

Putting a bigger rudder blade on would do it. People get far too excited about centre of lateral resistance, look at the way rigs are raked back and forth on modern racing dinghies.

 

[Bill5]

Well, if the boat with the jib has no weather helm, the proof is in the pudding. You would need a massive rudder blade to have the same effect on helm.

 

[Henry Hester]

Well, if the boat with the jib has no weather helm, the proof is in the pudding. You would need a massive rudder blade to have the same effect on helm.

Yes, I think I experienced more weather helm without the jib however, it was a fairly windy day and… we wanted to sail both boats evenly.
Here’s what I’ll try in order (without the jib):

Deal with the mainsai first. Depower it by tightening the outhaul, tighten the Cunningham, loosen up on the vang.

Raise the 4’ daggerboard about a foot.

Fix the rudder. One nut had come off of the lower rudder plate allowing for a sloppy tiller.

Being the over zealous beginner I am, I tend to sail with too much sheet. I will let the sail out just before luffing.

See the photo example below. The boat with th jib is flat and I’m healed over without. Rich, an experienced Laser sailor runs with less main sheet, and faster than me.

I’m excited to correct all of this.

 

[Bill5]

Yes oversheeting and excessive heeling can certainly cause weatherhelm. Do you have tell tales? They will help

 

[JimC]

Well, if the boat with the jib has no weather helm, the proof is in the pudding. You would need a massive rudder blade to have the same effect on helm.

Not really, no. The situation is a lot more complicated than the simplistic view from the people who draw centres of areas on a piece of paper and try and get them to line up think.
Consider: (OP you can ignore all this)
The boat needs a certain amount of lift from hull and foils to counteract the side load from the sails. In any given set of conditions this is constant. Lets say both foils have the same section, don't stall and the centreboard is twice the area of the rudder. With modern foils lift from the hull will be negligible, so we ignore it
Ok we'll start with an angle of 3 degrees on the board (3 degrees leeway in old school thinking) and that is 100% of required side force on the rudder, which is just trailing in the water with no side force, and is actually pointing 3 degrees to leeward, but no-one would notice that. Centre of lift is somewhere on the centreboard.
Next we consider equal lift on rudder and board. Board is at say 2 degrees, rudder the same (which is actually tiller on the centreline). Centre of lift is now about 1/3 of the way between centreboard and rudder.
Next, how about equal lift on each foil - Board/leeway is at say 1.5 degrees, rudder 3 degrees, tiller 1.5 degrees up from centreline, centre of lift midway between foils.
And to go to extremes, we could have all the lift on the rudder and none on the board, so lets say that's 6 degrees of incidence on the rudder, 6 degrees up from the centreline, and 0 degrees incidence on the board.
Obviously the lowest drag config is going to be with the lift shared between the foils, but exactly where is hard to know, what with different foil sections, drag from the hull if its at an angle of incidence, maybe even interference from centreboard wake on the rudder.

So how does this all happen: well this is the thing, and why folk aren't aware of this. By simply sailing the boat in a straight line you are completely unconsciously setting up the correct total side force and relative angles of incidence between the two foils.

 

[Henry Hester]

Not really, no. The situation is a lot more complicated than the simplistic view from the people who draw centres of areas on a piece of paper and try and get them to line up think.
Consider: (OP you can ignore all this)
The boat needs a certain amount of lift from hull and foils to counteract the side load from the sails. In any given set of conditions this is constant. Lets say both foils have the same section, don't stall and the centreboard is twice the area of the rudder. With modern foils lift from the hull will be negligible, so we ignore it
Ok we'll start with an angle of 3 degrees on the board (3 degrees leeway in old school thinking) and that is 100% of required side force on the rudder, which is just trailing in the water with no side force, and is actually pointing 3 degrees to leeward, but no-one would notice that. Centre of lift is somewhere on the centreboard.
Next we consider equal lift on rudder and board. Board is at say 2 degrees, rudder the same (which is actually tiller on the centreline). Centre of lift is now about 1/3 of the way between centreboard and rudder.
Next, how about equal lift on each foil - Board/leeway is at say 1.5 degrees, rudder 3 degrees, tiller 1.5 degrees up from centreline, centre of lift midway between foils.
And to go to extremes, we could have all the lift on the rudder and none on the board, so lets say that's 6 degrees of incidence on the rudder, 6 degrees up from the centreline, and 0 degrees incidence on the board.
Obviously the lowest drag config is going to be with the lift shared between the foils, but exactly where is hard to know, what with different foil sections, drag from the hull if its at an angle of incidence, maybe even interference from centreboard wake on the rudder.

So how does this all happen: well this is the thing, and why folk aren't aware of this. By simply sailing the boat in a straight line you are completely unconsciously setting up the correct total side force and relative angles of incidence between the two foils.

There are no foils.

 

[ortegakid]

FOILS ARE THE BLADES IN UK.
fix the rudder, rake it all the way forward no angle at all, don't care what laser purists say. just as on sunfish, makes all the diff.