How is it that HOAs boss people around in freedom loving USA?

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,268
5,176
Kent Island!
Did you not read the bylaws/covenants before you bought the property? 
Apparently not. I have never heard of anything like those restrictions, how could one be taken by surprise by something that sounds like a prison camp? If these rules were NOT presented to a prospective homeowner before purchase a good lawyer would have a field day suing the shit out of various people.

 

Not for nothing

Super Anarchist
3,275
749
jupiter
Did you not read the bylaws/covenants before you bought the property? 
reading "bible" would have been faster ,I rented in one HOA for 14 years not a problem, when I brought it was the start of Covid shut down , so things happened fast, I guess the start was a curtain issue ( which was up for 1 day), why didn't some one knock on the door with the problem , instead I get 2 texts 3 phone calls an email  and an 8x10 glossy letter from the POA, not a neighbor. A couple other small issues, then they raised an assessment 200 a month for painting some planters and other bullshit items, if you were part of the click you got special treatment, Luckily for me I was able to sell at a 20% profit after 11 months there. So I ended up ok on the deal The new place I'm in I'm saving about 500+ a month,

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,342
9,652
Eastern NC
Did you not read the bylaws/covenants before you bought the property? 
Apparently not. I have never heard of anything like those restrictions, how could one be taken by surprise by something that sounds like a prison camp? If these rules were NOT presented to a prospective homeowner before purchase a good lawyer would have a field day suing the shit out of various people.
I'm sure it varies state to state. Here in NC, HOA/POAs have quite strong powers to enforce their charters; failure to read the rules is on the home owner. You would have to prove that the POA did not actually follow it's own rules, but the most common outcome is 'bye bye sweetheart.'  Our POA made a sweep of long time offenders and ended up owning 600 properties in this community. Formed a new committee to weight best options for each of them; with regard to not flooding the local real estate market which was weak at the time. All sold off now.

It's amazing what people assume. Free water & sewer? Sorry, we don't have those here, and yes our POA built the water plant. This is a big complaint from new home owners, apparently a large percentage of America just has clean water appear magically any time you open the faucet. There's no yard debris fairy here either, pile all the stuff you want by the curb, it will sit there until either you or somebody you hire takes it to the dump (which grinds and recycles it, so that's good at least).

The POA here also has security guards from a company, which is annoying.... they are constantly telling us everything they are NOT responsible for and they are expensive (2nd biggest budget item, after roads). The guards used to be residents (benefit of a high retiree population) and deputized, yes they could give speeding tickets and even arrest people.

reading "bible" would have been faster ,I rented in one HOA for 14 years not a problem, when I brought it was the start of Covid shut down , so things happened fast, I guess the start was a curtain issue ( which was up for 1 day), why didn't some one knock on the door with the problem , instead I get 2 texts 3 phone calls an email  and an 8x10 glossy letter from the POA, not a neighbor. A couple other small issues, then they raised an assessment 200 a month for painting some planters and other bullshit items, if you were part of the click you got special treatment, Luckily for me I was able to sell at a 20% profit after 11 months there. So I ended up ok on the deal The new place I'm in I'm saving about 500+ a month,
Here, everything is done by volunteers. The POA is elected, so if you don't like something, run for the Board. Or volunteer for the committee that oversees the thing you don't like. No "click" involved although it's true that people who like to boss others seem to gravitate toward wanting to be on the Board... they seem to mostly shy away from the actual work involved, though.

It's good that POAs have such an evil reputation, I'd hate it if this place got too crowded.

- DSK

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,268
5,176
Kent Island!
reading "bible" would have been faster ,I rented in one HOA for 14 years not a problem, when I brought it was the start of Covid shut down , so things happened fast, I guess the start was a curtain issue ( which was up for 1 day), why didn't some one knock on the door with the problem , instead I get 2 texts 3 phone calls an email  and an 8x10 glossy letter from the POA, not a neighbor. A couple other small issues, then they raised an assessment 200 a month for painting some planters and other bullshit items, if you were part of the click you got special treatment, Luckily for me I was able to sell at a 20% profit after 11 months there. So I ended up ok on the deal The new place I'm in I'm saving about 500+ a month,
A month??? This place would riot at $500 a YEAR.

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,268
5,176
Kent Island!
I'm sure it varies state to state. Here in NC, HOA/POAs have quite strong powers to enforce their charters; failure to read the rules is on the home owner. You would have to prove that the POA did not actually follow it's own rules, but the most common outcome is 'bye bye sweetheart.'  Our POA made a sweep of long time offenders and ended up owning 600 properties in this community. Formed a new committee to weight best options for each of them; with regard to not flooding the local real estate market which was weak at the time. All sold off now.

It's amazing what people assume. Free water & sewer? Sorry, we don't have those here, and yes our POA built the water plant. This is a big complaint from new home owners, apparently a large percentage of America just has clean water appear magically any time you open the faucet. There's no yard debris fairy here either, pile all the stuff you want by the curb, it will sit there until either you or somebody you hire takes it to the dump (which grinds and recycles it, so that's good at least).

The POA here also has security guards from a company, which is annoying.... they are constantly telling us everything they are NOT responsible for and they are expensive (2nd biggest budget item, after roads). The guards used to be residents (benefit of a high retiree population) and deputized, yes they could give speeding tickets and even arrest people.

Here, everything is done by volunteers. The POA is elected, so if you don't like something, run for the Board. Or volunteer for the committee that oversees the thing you don't like. No "click" involved although it's true that people who like to boss others seem to gravitate toward wanting to be on the Board... they seem to mostly shy away from the actual work involved, though.

It's good that POAs have such an evil reputation, I'd hate it if this place got too crowded.

- DSK
My point was if someone bought a house and at no time was any HOA mentioned nor rules presented, they would have a great legal case. If they just didn't bother reading it, well that is just tough luck.

 

shaggy

Super Anarchist
9,994
1,055
Co
Say what????????????????

HOAs do not magically exempt you from local zoning laws. Most people that want HOAs, as opposed to tolerating them, are there for STRICTER codes, not getting away from regulations. The last place I lived the roads and water system were private, we maintained both of them. This is not especially unusual, if you are far from municipal water pipes you can band together and drill one big well or tell everyone they are on their own to drill one per house. Also when the community was built long ago the local government was not at all interested in building roads there, so it was DIY or drive on dirt trails in the woods.

I have never ever heard of anyplace building their own school system nor police nor fire department. Well I take that back on the school, Gibson Island has a private elementary school on the island, but that is exceedingly rare. Likewise with police, some neighborhoods might have a security guard or two, but that is not the same thing. Maybe there is someplace with actual police departments? That would seem expensive. We pay the local off-duty deputies to drive around on the weekends and keep the juvenile delinquents down to a dull roar and chase non-residents off the beach, but they are still sworn law enforcement officers, not really a private police force.
Well, Out here in the land of open spaces, Oakwood homes etc are building "Communities" in bumfuck nowhere..  So out by DIA..  Yes Out there..  Reunion is a Massive development that is touting Schools, FD, Cops etc, all within their "Footprint"..  The whole place is HOA controlled and they are building out the Grociery/retail spaces now.  These massive companies are literally buying the land cheap and doing whatever the fuck they want as they install their board members on the local boards.  These towns were tiny unincorporated towns, the mayor was like a dog, so the corp just basically takes over, town goes away, maybe they keep the town name and the old jail from the 1830's as their "Town square" or something.  That kind of thing...  No way in hell I would live like that...  The housing crunch out here is driving new home buyers out there in droves as nothing within 15 sq miles of downtown is affordable for families starting out.  It will calm down at some point as people realize that it is going to be 120 degrees in the shade out there in the summer, No fire danger though, cause there are no trees...  

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,342
9,652
Eastern NC
My point was if someone bought a house and at no time was any HOA mentioned nor rules presented, they would have a great legal case. If they just didn't bother reading it, well that is just tough luck.
Nope, it's not up to the HOA to make sure everybody who buys property knows the rules. Hell, they don't even give out the book. Fucker costs about $4 to print out.... I think they will email you the file as either a doc or PDF but you have to ask.

Due Diligence... caveat emptor.

It happens, this year there seems to be a bumper crop of new owners who are finding this out. Most are not too unhappy, some even pitch in nicely. Bigger problem is bitchy renters and AirBnB's. We're arguing about whether current DoRs cover it, or if we need a new rule. The proposal is to require insurance, and to provide a standard notice to renters; nothing worse.

- DSK

 

spankoka

Super Anarchist
 
so which part don’t you understand?
Why people work hard to make a down payment so they can own their own home, only to be told what to do like they are a mere renter. I guess it's just a different culture in Canada where people buy a home so they can paint it the color they want or whatever. 

 
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Lark

Supper Anarchist
9,485
1,696
Ohio
You sign a contract when you buy the house.  Don't read the fine print, that's your problem. It's private not government. 

I line in a HOA free zone.  I am watching 6-10 Duck Dynasty folk move into the 3 BR rental across the street.  They bring their stuff in by homemade wooden trailer.  One of the first loads included about 8 ammunition boxes.  Now maybe that's how they store diapers and books but I am not reassured. I wish I had taken a photo. 
When I was a teenager the folks moved into a foreclosure, vacant for over a year, in a neighborhood where cars with primer and non Caucasians were supposed to leave by sundown.  I had a 7 colored Buick.    We did most of the moving ourselves with a friend's farm trailer attached to a sedan.   My dad liked his straw hat and bib coveralls when doing heavy work himself, the house needed a lot of heavy work.    I'm sure the neighbors were terrified.

I have a trailer sailor in front of the house for a couple weeks early every spring and late fall getting cleaned, waxed, charged and repaired.   It also sits in the drive for a few days every summer, fitting out for a 'cruise'.   My daily driver is left out during the summer so the 45 year old dinghy can sit safe in the garage (I like it more).    Occasionally a canoe sits on the corner of the back yard fence.   I would never live somewhere with an anti boating HOA.  I accept the neighbor has a mansion on wheels parked in front of the house between travels and a Trump flag still hangs from his porch.   The guy across the street has an utility trailer next to the garage.   The next street over decided monoculture lawn isn't for him, the entire front yard is a slightly jungle like garden.  Who cares? 

My mother's HOA entertains itself battling a legal CBD farm nearby.   The crime it brought was teenagers trying to steal marijuana and some sort of a gun incident.   (Their own kids were the criminals).   They also fought off a megachurch that had plans for an adjacent sports complex.   That one may have been legitimate, since the loudspeakers would have been audible a long distance.   

 
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Ventucky Red

Super Anarchist
11,430
1,220
Nope, it's not up to the HOA to make sure everybody who buys property knows the rules. Hell, they don't even give out the book. Fucker costs about $4 to print out.... I think they will email you the file as either a doc or PDF but you have to ask.

Due Diligence... caveat emptor.

It happens, this year there seems to be a bumper crop of new owners who are finding this out. Most are not too unhappy, some even pitch in nicely. Bigger problem is bitchy renters and AirBnB's. We're arguing about whether current DoRs cover it, or if we need a new rule. The proposal is to require insurance, and to provide a standard notice to renters; nothing worse.

- DSK
More the responsibility of the seller as this needs to be brought forward in the disclosures in the property transfer.  Speaking from my experience, the CBRE is pretty adamant about this and there needs to be a printed copy presented to the buyer as full disclosure prior to title transfer - usually means two copies as one will reside with either the title or escrow company.

When I did the real estate thing I was told to make certain that "predicated on property inspection and thorough review HOA CC&Rs" was included in the offer.

My dealing with them in the past has been pretty good as they had some good things going and were a sensible group of folks  Sometimes annoying yes, but nothing like dealing the the Historical Society. 

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,342
9,652
Eastern NC
More the responsibility of the seller as this needs to be brought forward in the disclosures in the property transfer.  Speaking from my experience, the CBRE is pretty adamant about this and there needs to be a printed copy presented to the buyer as full disclosure prior to title transfer - usually means two copies as one will reside with either the title or escrow company.

When I did the real estate thing I was told to make certain that "predicated on property inspection and thorough review HOA CC&Rs" was included in the offer.

My dealing with them in the past has been pretty good as they had some good things going and were a sensible group of folks  Sometimes annoying yes, but nothing like dealing the the Historical Society. 
Sounds very reasonable. We already knew our current home was in an HOA/POA and there were in fact several lawsuits active against it. Without going into too much detail, we sought out a lawyer with a good rep to handle our closing, disclosure, and we also escrowed part of our HOA/POA fees pending settlement of one of the lawsuits. We got a very good summary of our restrictions & covenants and the powers of this particular POA... which include foreclosing on an owner's property under some circumstances.

Since then, I've been active in the running of the place, with regard for stewardship and foresight. Right now I am on the committee overseeing road work, our largest budget item.

It seems like a silly expectation that the world should be run for one's own benefit. Getting involved in the community and in politics is the only way to avoid serfdom IMHO whether one lives in an HOA/POA or not, where-ever.

- DSK

 

NeedAClew

Super Anarchist
6,037
1,692
USA
When I was a teenager the folks moved into a foreclosure, vacant for over a year, in a neighborhood where cars with primer and non Caucasians were supposed to leave by sundown.  I had a 7 colored Buick.    We did most of the moving ourselves with a friend's farm trailer attached to a sedan.   My dad liked his straw hat and bib coveralls when doing heavy work himself, the house needed a lot of heavy work.    I'm sure the neighbors were terrified.

I have a trailer sailor in front of the house for a couple weeks early every spring and late fall getting cleaned, waxed, charged and repaired.   It also sits in the drive for a few days every summer, fitting out for a 'cruise'.   My daily driver is left out during the summer so the 45 year old dinghy can sit safe in the garage (I like it more).    Occasionally a canoe sits on the corner of the back yard fence.   I would never live somewhere with an anti boating HOA.  I accept the neighbor has a mansion on wheels parked in front of the house between travels and a Trump flag still hangs from his porch.   The guy across the street has an utility trailer next to the garage.   The next street over decided monoculture lawn isn't for him, the entire front yard is a slightly jungle like garden.  Who cares? 

My mother's HOA entertains itself battling a legal CBD farm nearby.   The crime it brought was teenagers trying to steal marijuana and some sort of a gun incident.   (Their own kids were the criminals).   They also fought off a megachurch that had plans for an adjacent sports complex.   That one may have been legitimate, since the loudspeakers would have been audible a long distance.   
I guess I care if they pack more people in the house than they told the landlord and are allowed by ordnance, and I especially care if they have an arsenal. 

Agree the reference to homemade trailer and appearances were classist. This is not an elite neighborhood. 

 

Ventucky Red

Super Anarchist
11,430
1,220
Why people work hard to make a down payment so they can own their own home, only to be told what to do like they are a mere renter. I guess it's just a different culture in Canada where people buy a home so they can paint it the color they want or whatever. 
That is not always the case and in some instances is why they move there.  

I lived in a neighborhood with homes that were built back in the 30's and 40's outside of Philadelphia - right next to Haverford College.  The whole area was going through a gentrification and some of the owners wanted to put together some covenants for the neighborhood.  As first I was pretty much against it, but they were not being unreasonable.  There were things like: no parking of commercial vehicles on the street for more than 24 hours, trash cans needed to be in by sunset on collection day, sidewalks need to be cleared of snow as soon as practical, and loud parties need to end by 11:00 and a few others

With that we did have a Mrs.Crabbits that would walk the neighborhood and leave reminders in your mailbox.. but that is all they were.

 

Ventucky Red

Super Anarchist
11,430
1,220
Sounds very reasonable. We already knew our current home was in an HOA/POA and there were in fact several lawsuits active against it. Without going into too much detail, we sought out a lawyer with a good rep to handle our closing, disclosure, and we also escrowed part of our HOA/POA fees pending settlement of one of the lawsuits. We got a very good summary of our restrictions & covenants and the powers of this particular POA... which include foreclosing on an owner's property under some circumstances.

Since then, I've been active in the running of the place, with regard for stewardship and foresight. Right now I am on the committee overseeing road work, our largest budget item.

It seems like a silly expectation that the world should be run for one's own benefit. Getting involved in the community and in politics is the only way to avoid serfdom IMHO whether one lives in an HOA/POA or not, where-ever.

- DSK
Things must be different in NC... CA is a Trust Deed state, not mortgage. The only person that can foreclose is the benificary (lender).  What they can do is put a lien on the property that will secure past fees and fines.

There was a dump of a property in a great neighborhood that I was looking at 2 years ago that had some liens (from the city and county) against it.  After some research, I come to find that the sale price was just cover the obligation to the bank and I was going to be on the hook for the liens.. no thanks

 
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Ventucky Red

Super Anarchist
11,430
1,220
In some places privatized fire departments are a big thing, and you BETTER stay paid up, or . .  

https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/10472820/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again

 of the 730 fire departments in Tennessee, 354 (48%) are privately operated; 311 (43%) are public. 
When we had the Thomas Fire, there were some private firetrucks in the area.... some we're from the studios - had the Warner Brother logo on them.  Got talking and come to find out they hired by the insurance companies to protect "specific properties."

 

saxdog

Super Anarchist
4,284
355
Sounds very reasonable. We already knew our current home was in an HOA/POA and there were in fact several lawsuits active against it. Without going into too much detail, we sought out a lawyer with a good rep to handle our closing, disclosure, and we also escrowed part of our HOA/POA fees pending settlement of one of the lawsuits. We got a very good summary of our restrictions & covenants and the powers of this particular POA... which include foreclosing on an owner's property under some circumstances.

Since then, I've been active in the running of the place, with regard for stewardship and foresight. Right now I am on the committee overseeing road work, our largest budget item.

It seems like a silly expectation that the world should be run for one's own benefit. Getting involved in the community and in politics is the only way to avoid serfdom IMHO whether one lives in an HOA/POA or not, where-ever.

- DSK
"Getting involved in the community and in politics is the only way to avoid serfdom IMHO whether one lives in an HOA/POA or not, where-ever."

 HOA's  and condo boards are highly dependent on who in charge. I've lived with two.  Both were fine as long as they took care the basics like maintaining our private road and storm sewers. When the jerks who want to impose their idea of "good taste" on your home things get out of hand quickly.  If you are in one of these associations get on the board and be prepared to be loud.

 




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