So, We shouldn't have gotten anyone out, cause maybe there-be-bad-guys in the mix, but we left too many people behind. Did I get that right?Afghanistan in a nutshell:
We helped several tribes fight the Soviets and were well aware of how fucked up that place is. We watched the Soviets fail.
Then came 9/11. W decided to continue his dad's beef with the area in general, Iraq in particular, but first lets attack a bunch of goat fuckers in Afghanistan, after all the Soviets left a mess and surely we can get rid of the terrorists.
Shortly after intermediate success we listened to the UN and decided it would be a good place to prove that Muslims are good people who would gladly accept a democratic form of government. Thus the epic fail was underway.
Then Obama ran promising to get out of the shithole. He won, and Hillary stepped in saying "Go have a beer with your buddy, I got this." Naturally she had no intention of getting out. The UN was still convinced that more time and money was needed to convert a bronze age culture. Then they discovered a new breed of toys that needed to be tested. Finally the SEALS got Bin Laden, initial goal achieved. Get out? oh hell no. Too much money to be made, and the UN, well you know by now.
Trump campaigns on getting out. He won. Then he discovered that Obama had rewired the highest brass in the military, they were now convinced in the UN strategy. There was no getting out. Not while there is hope of converting a culture. Also we needed the intel. That means "boots on the ground."
Biden promises to get us out. He gets elected. He dicks around for a few months trying to figure out where the bathroom is in the Oval Office, then decides it is time. He tells his Woke generals to get out. Now not next year. I will do what you say as long as we get out. Fuck our allies, fuck Americans who are there, fuck the promises the US and the UN have made, get out.
So here we are. Twenty years later, both parties to blame and there is no hope for those who the UN and the US sold a dream to. They are truly going to pay the price for believing that the UN and the US have any intention of standing on their word.Thousands are going to die, likely horrible deaths. Most of you fuckwads are trying to place blame and polish a turd. These are real people. People who believed in the word they were given.
I'm glad we are out. We never should have tired to reshape that culture. However, how many of the 123000 we got out are actually those who needed our protection? How many are terrorists looking for a free ride to the din of the devil? Better yet, how many people did we lie to? Who believed those lies and put their lives at risk because of those lies?
BTW, this place hasn't changed at all. It is still the same shit hole it was twenty years ago when all this started... Have fun, fuckheads.
Oh I absolutely agree the culture changed. But not in the way that you're thinking. It's been changing pretty much non-stop since I joined 30 years ago. Ultimately, the military force is still a reflection of the greater population of the US. Over my 20 year career, I saw some enormous cultural changes not unlike what I think previous leaders saw in the 70s after vietnam. It was a hollow force then. It got way better in the 80s and 90s. But 20 years of the forever low level war has taken it's toll on the military.I agree with the bulk of what you said. The real threat is to the East. And yes the toys to fight the Chinese are certainly different, Navy heavy, fighters, subs and nukes. Maybe the top Brass was not convinced, but there definitely was a culture change. That change may not have included the role in Afghanistan, to be honest, that was a guess on my part, but there was a culture change. I saw it in the differences between the Navy I served in and the Navy my daughter served in.
First we never should have been nation building to begin with. We have proven over and over we suck at it.So, We shouldn't have gotten anyone out, cause maybe there-be-bad-guys in the mix, but we left too many people behind. Did I get that right?
And we wonder why our politics are fucked...
OK, so, I assume you're holding the Generals on the ground responsible, since they are the ones that gave Biden the plans on how to get out. Good. Some officers should be looking at an early retirement.First we never should have been nation building to begin with. We have proven over and over we suck at it.
Second, pulling all but 600 troops out and then starting the "Great EXIT Airlift" was just ass backwards. There would have always been complications, no way around that, but to put unneeded stress on those left was just stupid.
Third, given a more orderly pull out, with multiple air bases still active would have allowed for better vetting and a better chance of getting the correct people out. Instead, it was open the gates and let as many in as possible, we will sort them out later, not. It is almost as if Biden was looking for a way to assist the terrorist even more than Trump had.
Biden had the right idea of getting out. It was his Ready, Shoot, Aim approach that is totally screwed up.
What I do not understand is that there are plenty vets of Afghanistan, who believe that we could never completely pull out and expect any deterrence to the terrorists of that region. As long as all they had were pipe bombs, a few IED's of various types and AK's I do not see the real threat. Now, the AK's are M16 variants, and the Chinese will be willing to pay big bucks to get anything that may have sensitive information attached. bin Laden and crew were Saudis. Sure they may have trained in Afghanistan, but there is also Yemen, Pakistan, Iran and a half dozen other dung heaps where that training could have taken place. Not to mention, a large and very important part of that training was done in FL. I just don't buy the idea that we could never get out. When we did get out, it was known to be a certainty that the Taliban would fill the gap. The Brits tried, and failed. The Soviets tried, and failed. We were too stupid to learn from history, so we tried, and failed.
What you are describing is exactly what I was talking about. Top down our military has degraded in training and readiness. China is now a real danger.Oh I absolutely agree the culture changed. But not in the way that you're thinking. It's been changing pretty much non-stop since I joined 30 years ago. Ultimately, the military force is still a reflection of the greater population of the US. Over my 20 year career, I saw some enormous cultural changes not unlike what I think previous leaders saw in the 70s after vietnam. It was a hollow force then. It got way better in the 80s and 90s. But 20 years of the forever low level war has taken it's toll on the military.
I went overseas as a contractor soon after I retired and just came back to being in a military environment everyday. The change in that last 10 years is eye-opening. And not all for the better. I see laziness, disrespect, mediocrity, and disillusionment from the force, especially the young kids - officer and enlisted alike. But even the Sr officers are not much different. Grooming standards are so relaxed, I feel like I'm in a Hipster bar most days at work in the Squadron. Guys not only unshaven, but wearing actual beards and goatees. Girls in pony tails down to their ass. The USAF relaxed their grooming standards recently and most people have taken that inch and ran miles with it and nothing is enforced. But we have to cater to all the youngs kids' ideas of "freedom to be me" rather than be a part of something bigger. I literally just shake my head at what I see around me. And no, its not an old man "get off my lawn" thing. I think people who are in the profession of Arms have seen what it means by looking at Iraq and Afghanistan and realizing there is no purpose to it all. It's just groundhog day. We occasionally turn a bad guy into pink mist that deserved it, but then 10 other bad guys pop up to take the dead towel head's place.
Now that we are out of Afghanistan, I have hope that we may finally turn a corner by focusing and training to the real global threat, the ever-more aggressive tiger to the east. I think this generation of leaders and troops will come out of this ok much like the military rebuilt not only the capability but the pride that we achieved after the hollow force in the 70s - I think we have that task ahead to do the same. And I hope the notion of "nation-building" is long dead and buried for a great long time.
No I hold the President, Sec.of State, and the Chief's of Staff responsible. The generals on the ground were told to make potato soup without potatoes. They did the best they could with the hand they were dealt.OK, so, I assume you're holding the Generals on the ground responsible, since they are the ones that gave Biden the plans on how to get out. Good. Some officers should be looking at an early retirement.
If they love Trump, then yes they do.I'm not sure I buy that. In every other aspect of their lives, they are decent human beings and I'm pretty sure none have aspirations of being tyrants. I don't doubt they have some inner racist that they are finally happy to be allowed to let out. But that doesn't explain all of it.
And the slum lord mentality that is pervasive throughout "management" and entrepreneurs, here in the US.No I hold the President, Sec.of State, and the Chief's of Staff responsible. The generals on the ground were told to make potato soup without potatoes. They did the best they could with the hand they were dealt.
I see this all the time. I was once told to teach classes of thirty, in a lab designed for ten. I took as much of that crap as I could, then left. That is very typical throughout the US right now, be it medical, industry, or banking. This is a direct result of our inept educational system.
I always like it when people say, "I have a friend that is a ______" or in your case.. "I was talking to someone in the know and they said ________________" to help them build upon putting credibility into their own opinions.... they should dislike Trump inherently, because he violates EVERY principle of leadership. Shucks he violates every principle of common decency......
You can do better than this.
No we're not, you poo-poo head!This place is fantastic...
Shit slinging, memes and grand daughters (which is a new low I think).
Then a sane person comes around with an analysis, which could be the basis for an actual discussion.
2 posts later, and we are back to shit slinging.