How to deal with a dangerously incompetent sailor?

[frustratedRC]

I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

What would you all do?

 

[Suijin]

Sounds like you're not a member of the sponsoring/organizing committee. If you were, your options would have been discussed and you'd know what they are.

I don't think we can be of much help. Sounds like you need to take your beef to the people in charge. If he's as bad as you say and they don't think there's a problem or a means of addressing it, maybe you need a new committee.

But if pressed I suppose there might be some recourse related to persistent unsportsmanlike behavior.

 

[Great Red Shark]

Document, document, document.

It is difficult to just "Ban" someone from your activity without looking like you are discriminating arbitrarily - which can get you sued, so it falls to the competitors to Protest Properly, the Protest committee to decide against the boat clearly and, if they fail to attend hearings or acknowledge the authority of the governing body, then to take appropriate action - up to and including a ban from competition -short of that all you can do is " name and shame " them - which will look like just being catty to anyone outside the fleet.

A destructive competitor is a bad pest to have - I have also witnessed a fleet disintegrate for the affects of a competitor that managed to be involved in EVERY PROTEST filed in the fleet for a year -- and the really strange part was the guy was fast ! He just couldn't manage to NOT push EVERY bad position he'd find himself in, into an ugly conflict.

Bad for the sport.

 

[RKoch]

IIRC a race organizing group can refuse an entry, as long as the refusal and reason is stated in writing. So the YC merely has to send the individual a letter uninviting him from further participation, including the reason why. You might get sued, however.

 

[impetuous_donkey]

just add a few globs of epoxy to the keel, then he won't be close enough to anyone to cause a problem....

 

[frustratedRC]

Suijin,

I AM part of the committee, and we unanimously agree we want to do something about it.

I'm sorry we don't know what all of our options are, hence this post looking for advice, and ideally experiences if any others here have dealt with this situation before.

he DOES show up to the protest, and unfortunately IS the type to sue our tiny club out of existence.

We have documentation of the incidents. What else should we document?

Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[Grande Mastere Dreade]

I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

What would you all do?

tell dennis to fuck off..

 

[SloopJonB]

Can't you eject him from the club for unsportsmanlike conduct or something?

In the employment world the way to prevent lawsuits is referred to as "Progessive Discipline". Verbal warning, documented verbal warning, written warning with "may result in termination" in the text, final warning with "WILL result in termination" in the text, written termination.

 

[John Drake]

Tell him first gun is at 8 and then start your races at 7......

 

[maxstaylock]

Is there anything you could R2 him for? Would provide clear grounds for 'suspension'.

Other than that, you could get someone he respects to talk him into hiring a pro, to at least to smooth off some of the edges.

 

[frustratedRC]

We've been trying to talk him into getting a pro onboard for a long time. Have had some sail with him for free.

He won't listen to any input at all.

I've had some of my crew who he knew sail with him, and he wouldn't even let them put the jib cars in the right place or tension the outhaul, he continues to sail upwind with half of his jib luffing and the foot of the mainsail sagging 10+inches away from the boom and the leech closed.

Re: R2: How do we "clearly establish the recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play have been violated"?

SloopJonB: we have our races open to non-club members and would like to keep it that way if possible.

 

[Great Red Shark]

We had a guy that I'll refer to as "Crash-Bang! Joe" that our esteemed race chairman had to have a quiet word with - on more than one occasion, but I don't THINK he was ever actually banned, unlike the person at the center of the protest web, - who eventually earned himself a Rule 69 ban for a year - but only after killing at least one good fleet forever.

I don't think that he can sue you for asking him not to compete. Invite him before the race officers to discuss the number of incidents over the past season and state that a number of skippers have asked that he not race - and that if he does, they won't. Simple as that - it would be useful to have your facts straight however, and perhaps have a few well-regarded programs state that they aren't going to put their crew in jeopardy due to his demonstrated bad judgment anymore. It is short of a ban, but legal.

 

[mad]

I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

What would you all do?

Just decline his race entry.

Simple.

 

[Somebody Else]

We got someone like that.

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

See's everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

Not only does he screw with his own class (PHRF), he screws up other classes and fleets (One Design).

He has lost every protest. He has caused semi-serious damage (necessitating haul-out.)

 

[Great Red Shark]

Hey, just curious....when you say Dangerously incompetent, you aren't talking about ME, are you....?

 

[mad]

Suijin,

I AM part of the committee, and we unanimously agree we want to do something about it.

I'm sorry we don't know what all of our options are, hence this post looking for advice, and ideally experiences if any others here have dealt with this situation before.

he DOES show up to the protest, and unfortunately IS the type to sue our tiny club out of existence.

We have documentation of the incidents. What else should we document?

Thanks again for all of your input.

See my first post.

Can't play nicely and is a danger to other boats and crew. Gone.

 

[Parma]

talk to the ph board and adjust his rating out of sight

does your ph rules require limit marks? does he have them?

 

[Great Red Shark]

Now, howabout - what do we do with a drunken sailor ?

 

[BlondeWithFreeBoat]

Tell him first gun is at 8 and then start your races at 7......

Brilliant.