How to deal with a dangerously incompetent sailor?

[BlondeWithFreeBoat]

I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

 

[douglas]

Up the insurance requirements for anyone with an at fault on the water incident. If it's 2 mil, go 5. Ask anyone with at fault on the water incident to pay a damage deposit of a few grand. Should put a damper on his entertainment.

 

[Maxx Baqustae]

Now, howabout - what do we do with a drunken sailor ?

Put him in the longboat until he's sober?

Er.....early in the morning.

 

[Kevlar Edge]

take him to a fellow competitors meeting in the parking lot and allow him to suggest a solution to the problem if it's not satisfactory to the fellow competitors then

force a solution that everyone agrees with.

 

[WunHungLo]

Use your rulebook to ban his entry. If you need legal ammo, it's all in there,....

Basic Principles... First sentence of the first paragraph

Part 1 Fundamental Rules ... Rule 3 is the contract to abide by the rules and use Rule 2 as soon as you can document a specific instance in a race.

Part 5 Protest, Redress, Hearings, Misconduct and Appeals.... Rule 69

 

[Cement_Shoes]

I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

This is probably the safest way to do it to avoid being sued but I think with your documentation you could exclude him now. Look at rule 76 and follow it to the letter.

Proven danger to himself and others is a legitimate reason to ban someone. While the safety of a crew is ultimately up to the individual boat/captain/crew, I think that the club and RC that run the races has a responsibility to do what they can to ensure a hazard free racecourse: this includes taking boats that have proven themselves to routinely be a safety risk off the course.

 

[sailman]

It sounds like he is close to infringing on Rule 2:

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.

There is not much wiggle room to exclude a race application:

76 EXCLUSION OF BOATS OR COMPETITORS
76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel
the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.2,
provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the
reason for doing so. However, the organizing authority or the race
committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a
competitor because of advertising, provided the boat or competitor
complies with ISAF Regulation 20, Advertising Code.

76.2 At world and continental championships no entry within stated
quotas shall be rejected or cancelled without first obtaining the
approval of the relevant international class association (or the
Offshore Racing Council) or the ISAF.

 

[Hobie Dog]

Can't you eject him from the club for unsportsmanlike conduct or something?

In the employment world the way to prevent lawsuits is referred to as "Progessive Discipline". Verbal warning, documented verbal warning, written warning with "may result in termination" in the text, final warning with "WILL result in termination" in the text, written termination.

We've been trying to talk him into getting a pro onboard for a long time. Have had some sail with him for free.

He won't listen to any input at all.

I've had some of my crew who he knew sail with him, and he wouldn't even let them put the jib cars in the right place or tension the outhaul, he continues to sail upwind with half of his jib luffing and the foot of the mainsail sagging 10+inches away from the boom and the leech closed.

Re: R2: How do we "clearly establish the recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play have been violated"?

SloopJonB: we have our races open to non-club members and would like to keep it that way if possible.

I was going to say before going all legal, suspension, insurance on him trying talking with him first. MOST people will get it and want to improve and realize they are not helping their fleet, club and racing with how they are sailing. And he is DFL all the time? WOW MOST people would figure out something is not right with how they are racing at that point.

Obviously in this case you are dealing with somebody that is so dense light bends around him. I am not even sure he is a couple cans short, the entire 6 pack is missing!!!

Maybe try talking again but sounds like you might have to take on one of the legal routes suggested. Sucks! Go Luck!

 

[mad]

If you need legal ammo, it's all in there,....

Basic Principles..9

That sounds a little harsh.

 

[Glenn McCarthy]

The options are short:

1. Someone of respect needs to have a quiet sit down with him.

2. If he is causing enough collisions and being found guilty and paying for the damage, eventually no insurance company will insure him.

3. Excluding a boat is incredibly difficult. The best one is a RRS 69, because if it is successful the process includes the backing of US Sailing. But can collisions simply be called "unsportsmanlike conduct?" One would need proof of intent, which anyone with any sense would not admit to.

I'll bet it will be #2 that gets him to go away.

 

[Cement_Shoes]

It sounds like he is close to infringing on Rule 2:

2 FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized

principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized

under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles

have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be

excluded from the boats series score.

There is not much wiggle room to exclude a race application:

76 EXCLUSION OF BOATS OR COMPETITORS

76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel

the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.2,

provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the

reason for doing so. However, the organizing authority or the race

committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a

competitor because of advertising, provided the boat or competitor

complies with ISAF Regulation 20, Advertising Code.

76.2 At world and continental championships no entry within stated

quotas shall be rejected or cancelled without first obtaining the

approval of the relevant international class association (or the

Offshore Racing Council) or the ISAF.

76.2 wouldn't apply because this is a small series not a world or continental championship.
I may not be reading 76.1 right but to me it gives the organizers a lot of authority in banning a competitor.

If they were really worried about legal ramifications they could write something like a three strikes and you're out rule in the SIs and then ban the offender after his third strike.

But I still think a 'menace to the safety of everyone' reason is plenty for 76.1.

I actually like it more than fair sailing, rule 69 and the other suggestions along those lines. Especially when worried about a lawsuit, I would like to keep everything as clear cut as possible. Not to mention as understandable to non-sailors as possible.

"He has a long documented history of collisions and near collisions and we banned him before he seriously injures someone." Anyone can understand that and agree with the reasoning behind the decision.

Edit: 76.2 as used here may actually be 76.3 in the current rules. It wouldn't change my interpretation of it.

 

[clucas]

I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

I think the RC has grounds with Rule #2. If they want to soften it a bit (and are not obligated to), refer him to a rules seminar or suggest he seek crewing opportunities on other boats to gain experience -- I wouldn't offer to set that up since that places the burden on the RC. Of course, he may have to go someplace else, but that's not really your problem.

 

[Cement_Shoes]

If you haven't already tried, I would see if you can get some guidance from USSailing.

 

[DogBalls]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

[SC Finnster]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

If he had a hot wife, they would not be on here whining..

 

[10thTonner]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

 

[mustang__1]

while 10thtonner is spot on,

if he wont listen to people on his boat, could he brought on someone else's to observe? obviously it may not have much of a effect, but after the aforementioned "here's the deal" speech, maybe he'll listen.

or take 10thtonner's advice.

 

[shaggy]

If he is sailing as badly as you say why the fuck does it matter what he does?? You should be long gone by the time he even gets close to the start line. Just avoid at start and go... <_<

 

[Rawhide]

Had some one like this at a club i sail at, not an asshole though, just had no fucking clue.

He got told that it was a condition of his being able to continue racing that he have a pro acceptable to the club next to him on the boat at all times. Hasn't been a problem since and I think must have learned something because I think the restriction has been lifted.

But for fuck sake harden up and do something.

 

[DogBalls]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

You could shit in a bag, light it on fire, leave it by his front door, ring the bell and run. But that would be childish