How to deal with a dangerously incompetent sailor?

[JimC]

I'd talk to the National Authority and get their advice. Getting a protest escalated beyond club level might be an option, but getting him on other boats to see how it should be done is probably most positive.

I do wonder about people though. Some of the dumbass posts in this thread, neither funny or useful. What is the point of posting that garbage?

 

[LB 15]

We got someone like that.

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

See's everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

That's a rather long bow you draw there mate.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Make your series the XYZ Invitational. Don't invite him.

 

[FearTheDuck]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

You could shit in a bag, light it on fire, leave it by his front door, ring the bell and run. But that would be childish

Or just throw a couple severely mangled up cotter pins on deck. That usually stops the b.s. right there until rig is inspected.....and even then it's in the back of of said asshats mind where did they belong?

 

[Somebody Else]

You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife daughter, steal his dog.

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

I'm all for kicking the shit out of him in the parking lot.

 

[Somebody Else]

We got someone like that.

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

Sees everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

That's a rather long bow you draw there mate.

You are right; there are small business owners who are not assholes.

He is not one of them, though.

 

[bloodshot]

Make your series the XYZ Invitational. Don't invite him.

That's basically what our club did with a habitual asshat. no muss no fuss.

 

[LB 15]

Most club fleets have someone like this at some point. Just spread the word for no one to talk to him or sail with him. he will soon go somewhere else.

 

[Splash49]

To speed up rule #2 from Glen McCarthy, contact his insurer with the list of protests, decisions and collisions. Make sure your racing requirements include insurance amount and current coverage.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Stop scoring him.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

You underestimate the urge of some people to be asshats. We had one guy that raced singlehanded in a not-singlehanded class, got in everyone's way, was always on the bow under autopilot when you called starboard, etc. etc.

He got protested out of EVERY race and kept coming back.

Stop scoring him.

 

[SF Woody Sailor]

You have to be VERY careful here or you will be vulnerable to a lawsuit under the Ted Stevens Act. Please consult a lawyer who is familiar with the Ted Stevens Act because it is a minefield. I also strongly encourage you to involve a U.S. Sailing certified Judge. If this guy is litigious he can easily bankrupt your Club if you follow any of the advice in this thread. If you want to exclude him you will need to dot every i and dot every t to be on safe ground.

 

[Bull City]

Most club fleets have someone like this at some point. Just spread the word for no one to talk to him or sail with him. he will soon go somewhere else.

It sounds like the guy is not just clueless, but an obnoxious prick too. Beyond what Life Buoy suggests, if he shows up to race, have everyone else withdraw prior to the start. It requires a sacrifice on everyone's part but he should get the message.

We did something like this with a psycho who tried to force his way into our pick-up soccer game. Nobody passed to him, and if he got the ball, we all stopped playing. He was gone in a about 20 minutes.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[jesposito]

I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

What would you all do?

You must be talking about 80% of the wing nuts on Western LIS

 

[LB 15]

You have to be VERY careful here or you will be vulnerable to a lawsuit under the Ted Stevens Act. Please consult a lawyer who is familiar with the Ted Stevens Act because it is a minefield. I also strongly encourage you to involve a U.S. Sailing certified Judge. If this guy is litigious he can easily bankrupt your Club if you follow any of the advice in this thread. If you want to exclude him you will need to dot every i and dot every t to be on safe ground.

How can everyone ignoring him in the bar bring on a lawsuit? Can a judge order you to be nice to someone? This Ted Stevens chap must have been quite the pussy.

 

[SF Woody Sailor]

Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

 

[LB 15]

Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

[SF Woody Sailor]

Well played

 

[Brass]

I'd talk to the National Authority and get their advice. Getting a protest escalated beyond club level might be an option, but getting him on other boats to see how it should be done is probably most positive.

I do wonder about people though. Some of the dumbass posts in this thread, neither funny or useful. What is the point of posting that garbage?

Surely you have a few lawyers in your club or on the committee who can advise the legal issues, will depend on the club's constitution, etc.

Once you are on clear ground there, then go through the steps mentioned above: committee documents the problems; respected club member has a quiet word; then a corporate-style discipline/termination process.

Tedious but necessary these days.

Some good advice, some bad.

Childish suggestions involving assault and vandalism should be treated with the contempt which they deserve.

Talking to from respected people is a very good start.

Consistent, ongoing action such as competitors protesting every observed breach (followed by, if true analysis such as 'you have been protested for on-water rule breaches 20 times in the last six months and you have been penalised in 20 of those protests: this indicates that you are either unwilling or unable to comply with the rules') might also be useful.

Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it. A local lawyer will do one case on the law of unincorporated associations in his or her lifetime if he or she is unlucky. If you want legal advice get it from US Sailing.


With the benefit of some facts and judgement, rejection of entry in accordance with rule 76.1 may be effective.

Note that US Sailing Prescription to rule 76.1 says:

... an organising authority or race committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat ... for an arbitrary or capricious reason or for reason of race, colour, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation or age.

So if the club's reason for rejecting the entry is clearly stated, backed up by your risk analysis, you should be on firm ground. US Sailing can advise you on application of the Ted Stevens Act.

A rule 2 protest will achieve very little. If the protest is upheld all that can happen is that the competitor can be disqualified from the one race in which it has been proved that rule 2 has been broken. Repeated rule 2 protests would look very like collusion or conspiracy.

I'm likewise sceptical that you can find an established principle, then clearly establish violation. No rule says that a boat is required to be sailed in a seamanlike way.

Rule 69 probably has more legs. I wouldn't have too much difficulty finding that frequently repeated, obvious breaches of Part 2 rules, with no breaches found on other competitors, and following warnings from the race committee or club came up to a gross breach of the rules and possibly a gross breach of good manners.

The limitations of a rule 69.2 hearing by a local protest committee is that it's powers in imposing a penalty are limited to:

excluding the competitor and, when appropriate, disqualifying a boat, from

• a race or
• the remaining races or all races of the series, or
• by taking other action within its jurisdiction.

So a boat and competitor might be excluded from a season long series, but not from other series or future seasons, UNLESS the Club as Organising Authority appointing the protest committee specifically gave it additional powers to do so.

Of course, if the local protest committee did penalise the competitor, it would be required to report the penalty to US Sailing, who could impose further sanctions in accordance with rule 69.3.

 

[jack_sparrow]

Just call John Wick