Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
- Thread starter
- #41
Yes... for on-scene bosses, continual awareness of safety issues is a biggy. That definitely includes hypothermia and heat stress.
Hypothermia Briefing
- Thread starter Steam Flyer
- Start date
Yes... for on-scene bosses, continual awareness of safety issues is a biggy. That definitely includes hypothermia and heat stress.
Rantifarian
Rantifarian
I've also seen people starting to get cold and dumb after a few hours doing safety at sea training in the pool, wearing their full wet weather gear, in the tropics, in summer.
Difficult to isolate stupid when 74 million people voted for trump.
Recall having a mate from Nova Scotia on one boat he couldn’t swim-they saw swimming as prolonging the inevitable.
Agree that cold water shock should be mentioned.
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
does the Newfie poke fun at the Bluenoser?
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
this story is simultaneously amusing, shocking and instructive.
Newfies don't swim either. Sounds odd the first time but after a few you believe them.
spankoka
Super Anarchist
Commercial fishermen in the Atlantic Provinces mostly cannot swim at all!-there are rinks but not swimming pools in rural communities. It's impossible to learn to swim well in cold water. Sadly; the local fishermen do really think MOB=death.
When I was in Australia, it was an eye-opener to me just how well average people could swim. The local pool had an adult recreational swimming league. I can only swim to save my life. A lifeguard at Surfer's Paradise gave me shit about how lousy I swim-he was right!
Back to the subject; being a decent swimmer to start with is maybe a good way to avoid cold shock. I know that hypothermia can kill anybody-but confident swimmers have something to start with in cold water.
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Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
- Thread starter
- #48
There's float-kick-breathe technique called "drown-proofing" but I think the exertion makes you more susceptible to hypothermia if the immersion is prolonged. You don't have to be a good swimmer, but you have to have the self-discipline to exhale while you're still mostly immersed and beginning your kick to raise your face for the inhale. Works for rough water.
In cold water, you need a flotation aid so you can curl in a ball and retain heat, if you're going to be in the water for any length of time.
Cold shock is certainly real, can cause cardiac arrest. Thing they don't tell you about those "polar bear swims" on occasions like New Years, a small but regular percentage of people arrest the first second.
The big problem is the involuntary gasping, when dropped suddenly in cool (much less cold) water. A lot of the time it touches off a chain reaction, water in the lungs or even just the trachea leading to panic and then drowning.
In cold water, you need a flotation aid so you can curl in a ball and retain heat, if you're going to be in the water for any length of time.
Cold shock is certainly real, can cause cardiac arrest. Thing they don't tell you about those "polar bear swims" on occasions like New Years, a small but regular percentage of people arrest the first second.
The big problem is the involuntary gasping, when dropped suddenly in cool (much less cold) water. A lot of the time it touches off a chain reaction, water in the lungs or even just the trachea leading to panic and then drowning.
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
I don't know if you already know of him, or if it is applicable to you, but Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht has a series of videos on YouTube. It might interest you anyway.
You'd have to search, there are lots of videos scattered around, I don't have the bookmarks anymore.
Learn the Reality of Cold Water Risks via Cold Water BOOT CAMP!
Beyond Boot Camp USA: Rescue, Recover, Rewarm
One of the guinea pigs above, Mario Vittone, who dies virtually dozens of times, is the guy who jumps out of the helicopter here to save the couple, their daughter and baby from the beautiful Dashew ketch:
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
On a cold night, about 19 F or so, one girl aboard was sitting in the corner in the cockpit not moving or talking. Everyone else was pretty lively, circulating below to get hot cider and coming back up. I asked her if she was cold and she would mumble no. We asked her to go below and she would mumble but not move.
It finally dawned on me she wasn't being antisocial, she was too cold to carry on a conversation. She also could not get up. We hauled her below and wrapped her up with an electric blanket and sleeping bag and she shortly came back to life and was fine the rest of the trip.
When I was young and dumb the neighbors had $20 for us kids if we could hook their sunken mooring and drag it up. The grapple wouldn't grapple it, so I decided that there was no reason not to swim down to it on a 32 degree day. I did manage to hook it, but I was so cold I could not grab the rail and haul myself back into the boat. If my buddies hadn't yanked me back in I guess I would have spend all winter out there
I couldn't have been in the water more than 5 minutes, shit happens fast.
The Q
Super Anarchist
Back in about 1981, I was sailing my laser, hit an ice floe and was thrown overboard. The laser righted itself and sailed off without me. I was left in the middle of the river, so I swam to the bank and was rescued from there.
I had the symptoms from Mild hypothermia and some from the serious. Got back the club house hot shower, dry clothes etc went home.
Unfortunately I'd injured myself and didn't know it. Next day I ended up in hospital and had an operation. my temperature went through the roof.
A couple of years later i needed a second operation... My temperature went through the roof again.
It was then discovered I was susceptible to malignant hyperthermia. That cost me my job....
I had the symptoms from Mild hypothermia and some from the serious. Got back the club house hot shower, dry clothes etc went home.
Unfortunately I'd injured myself and didn't know it. Next day I ended up in hospital and had an operation. my temperature went through the roof.
A couple of years later i needed a second operation... My temperature went through the roof again.
It was then discovered I was susceptible to malignant hyperthermia. That cost me my job....
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
- Thread starter
- #55
Malignant Hyperthermia is fairly well-known but not well-understood body reaction; or extreme over-reaction might be a better description. The body usually shifts it's temperature depending on circumstances, for example you cool off when asleep. The human body is very well temperature-regulated with a sensitive and well-controlled mechanism but we don't understand all of it. It's desirable because of the chemical reactions you have going on inside which are very dependent on exact temperatures for the correct and most efficient chemistry. This is why, for example, when you get "a cold," your body tells itself to run hot.
When the body reacts by severely changing the internal temperature setting, far beyond anything beneficial, that is 'Malignant Hyperthermia.' Anesthesiologists need to be particularly aware of it because it is a deadly threat in the operating room. It's like thermal runaway in an electrical device.
(edit to add- did not see VF's post above, well done, thanks)
The Q
Super Anarchist
Malignant hyperthermia is triggered mostly by anaesthetic gases used in hospitals, though there are some other drugs with links to it.
In my case it was halothane ethrane, but these inhaled general anesthetics, halothane, desflurane, enflurane, ether, isoflurane, sevoflurane, and succinylcholine are also a trigger.
I was told at the time it's a 50/50 death rate... And I've had two hospital reactions....
Both times I awoke with just a sheet over me and nurses trying to cool me down.
Dantrolene had been administered.
There are some links to some types of diabetes and I'm diabetic..
It also means I'm highly reactive to caffeine, one espresso overloads my heart rate and I get the shakes. So a full fat Coca Cola is a disaster to me...
In my case it was halothane ethrane, but these inhaled general anesthetics, halothane, desflurane, enflurane, ether, isoflurane, sevoflurane, and succinylcholine are also a trigger.
I was told at the time it's a 50/50 death rate... And I've had two hospital reactions....
Both times I awoke with just a sheet over me and nurses trying to cool me down.
Dantrolene had been administered.
There are some links to some types of diabetes and I'm diabetic..
It also means I'm highly reactive to caffeine, one espresso overloads my heart rate and I get the shakes. So a full fat Coca Cola is a disaster to me...
I wouldn't agree on that. As a child I and both of my children went to a swimming school at a local sea beach. Depending on luck the water was between 10 and 17 C. All the children learned to swim, which means in Finland being able to swim 200 m without a break and 50 m on your back.
I can remember well when my older daughter was there. It was about 11 C and 10 m/s wind. All the parents were freezing with a lot of clothes on. The children had a warm up running at the beach and then went to water without any complaints.
I have quite often cleaned the hull of my boat without any gear in 12-13 C water. It takes at least 30 minutes. Once I did almost a hour. At the end I stopped feeling cold and when I got out of the water I started shivering a lot. Probably had a mild hypothermia, but had no problems getting out of water with ladders at the transom. We went for a transport sail for a race and I spent about an hour inside the boat with the heater on full power before I felt warm enough to go out.
In Finland most boats are equipped with Sailors Yearbook, which contains a table for survive times in different water temperatures. When my daughter was 10 years old we were sailing in rather cold and heavy weather with storm jib and two reefs. I was alone in the cockpit and my wife and daughters were inside the boat. Suddenly my daughter asked me what's the water temperature. I said 10 C. Then she said with a happy voice you would survive 30 minutes, if you would fell abroad. That was nice to know!
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
There is a vast difference between swimming and falling in. Swimming in a mountain waterfall pool in 10 degree (50F) water was fun. After 30-40 minutes you feel like getting back out in the sun and warming up.
A mentally unprepared person that randomly falls in the same water can end up in a very bad way. Our USCG statistic here is 50/50/50. 50% of the people that fall in 50(F) degree water will be dead in 50 minutes.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
- Thread starter
- #60
Where's the dividing line between "feeling cold" and hypothermia? There isn't one, really. And as a practical matter, it's not important -UNTIL- you get into the boundary region with more serious hypothermia.
The problem I see is that hypothermia has mental symptoms, it sneaks up on you. Say you're swimming around and feel a little cold, OK you're still fine. That brain fog is creeping up slowly, and you think you're fine as your temp drops to the point where muscles start to lock up. If you're with others and they know to help you and warm you back up, all good. If it goes further, probably at some point it won't be fine.
I think people living in a colder area, or coastal area with cold water such as places with northerly ocean current, get more experience of where this boundary is and almost instinctively understand it.
The problem I see is that hypothermia has mental symptoms, it sneaks up on you. Say you're swimming around and feel a little cold, OK you're still fine. That brain fog is creeping up slowly, and you think you're fine as your temp drops to the point where muscles start to lock up. If you're with others and they know to help you and warm you back up, all good. If it goes further, probably at some point it won't be fine.
I think people living in a colder area, or coastal area with cold water such as places with northerly ocean current, get more experience of where this boundary is and almost instinctively understand it.
