If you started a club racing fleet....

sailinspray

Member
55
0
Looking for some recommendations based on the following parameters:

-Double handed

-Trapeze? (not yet necessary)

-Spinnaker

-Have to have new boats available

-Priced within reason (<$20K)

-Can be dry sailed on a dolly

-One design

This idea is based purely on engagement, getting people on the water, the critical mass promoting competition- which will hopefully be fairly high.

 

rgeek

Super Anarchist
2,722
135
- age group

- weight range

- experience level

- interest in boat work

- social focus? performance focus?

 

skslr

Member
218
42
Germany
If you want to have as many folks racing competively as possible, the focus should be on giving everyone a fair shot at winning.

· Doublehanded: Good opportunity for less experiences folks to race as crew

· Trapeze: Not so good for folks that are either less experienced and/or not commited enough

· Spinnaker: dito

· Dry sailed: Should be rather light weight, so everyone can move it to the water

I sailed in a club with JY15s which is had the following additional advantages:

· Doublefloor: Nobody is disadvanted by water sloshing around in the cockpit for whatever reason

· Moderate sail plan: Can be sailed by two girls, but also singlehanded by “full size” men.

· Minimal controls: Nobody is disadvanted by not knowing all the tricks for spreader angle whatever or by a previous crew getting it all wrong

· Rigg tension is created by simple lever on the forestay: Easy to put on a reproducible Rigg tension, no wire in jib luff

· Robust dacron sails

It is for sure not the coolest, fastest or most refined dinghy, but all that matters less when everyone sails the same type.

A more recent interpretation is the ZIM as mentioned above already.

Other options could be Albacore (single floor, but a classic racing dinghy), the relatively recent Rondar ICON (http://www.cirrusrace.com/icon), RS Vision/Quest (both rotomould so less stiff/responsive but easier to maintain), V15 (is this stil in production?),

However I would be very careful to not go for some dinghies that were designed for teenagers and do not carry the weight of two adults properly, such as the int420 derivatives

 

jimmydyurko

Member
357
23
I started a Buccaneer 18 fleet at my club, not really a 'club' fleet, but I keep loaner boats on hand for new sailors/members. and about 10 of us have 'em right now at our club.

Boat is big enough for full size adults to sail 2 or 3 up (I've had 5 on mine..but never more than 3 while racing)

Has enough sail area to keep things interesting in very light air even for bigger crews

can be righted by one 180lb person, or 2 smaller people

New boats fully rigged with every gadget you can imagine are well under the 20k mark

ample used boats in many markets

factory support is descent

class support is excellent

no trapeze, but easily added for someone who just wants to fart around. (done that)

Boat planes in a medium breeze

Spinnaker Launcher makes flying the spin super easy, even though it's a sym kite.

simple enough to sail single handed,

light enough to push around on a dolly/trailer,

too heavy for hand launching/beach launching

 

sailinspray

Member
55
0
Thanks for the responses.

The Zim is an interestingl option. I like, however may be a bit collegiate. RS Vision has come up along with the V15, but the cat option is intriguing.

This fleet would have to foster the new college grads, the father/mother son/daughter team, possibly big boat racers who want another quick option and fun fleet. Its a full range looking to get people sailing, develop skills and eventually be worth something for club champs.

 

Dave Clark

Anarchist
912
867
Rhode Island
Thanks for the responses.

The Zim is an interestingl option. I like, however may be a bit collegiate. RS Vision has come up along with the V15, but the cat option is intriguing.

This fleet would have to foster the new college grads, the father/mother son/daughter team, possibly big boat racers who want another quick option and fun fleet. Its a full range looking to get people sailing, develop skills and eventually be worth something for club champs.
You're accidentally quoting the Z15 design brief....

In reality "Collegiate"=Club420s and Larks thanks to the ossified nature of american college racing. In most cases I'm a huge advocate for used stuff, but in the club case, having a manufacturer willing to service and replace is a huge deal, so discontinued boats are really something you want to avoid. The RS vision is cripplingly heavy. That's really all you need to know. Hate to come on so strong, but Zim came up with this boat precisely to effectively answer this sort of question. Also I'm partial to my dad's designs and designs from this century. Additionally, North did a killer job with the sail design.

DRC

 

Surf-n-Turf

Member
232
0
Dallas, TX
Looking for some recommendations based on the following parameters:

-Double handed

-Trapeze? (not yet necessary)

-Spinnaker

-Have to have new boats available

-Priced within reason (<$20K)

-Can be dry sailed on a dolly

-One design

This idea is based purely on engagement, getting people on the water, the critical mass promoting competition- which will hopefully be fairly high.
Dry sailed on a dolly limits you to V15 and Snipes for double handed. Neither will get you a kite. Weta might be a good alternative.

Since these will be club owned boats, why not a fleet of Lasers, RS Areo, or other single handed boats. A lot of parents love competing with their kids on the water. They can also be used in the training and junior programs too.

Most importantly, what does the local dealer stock? One design classes without a local rep does not do well.

 

skslr

Member
218
42
Germany
[SIZE=medium] RS200: Really nice boats, but do not carry weight well.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Zim 15 vs RS Vision: “Cripplingly heavy” might be a bit misleading in a U.S. context of Buccaneers and Lightnings. A Vision is about the same weight as a 505, so launching with 2 persons will be no issue.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]A Zim 15 should be stiffer, more responsive and ultimately more rewarding to sail (at least compared to a Vision without kite). But another aspect is how much effort you are willing to put into maintenance: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]A light weight sandwich boat will require that the users handle it very carefully ashore and during launching. In addition such a clear coated (“sexy”) carbon mast is extremely sensitive to extended periods of sunlight. You will need some protection concept like coating with white protection paint and repainting it after 1 or 2 seasons or taking the masts down and covering them when not in use. Just putting on some new clear coat after 5 years will make it look nice again but neither undo any previous degradation nor provide any significant protection for the future.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]On the other hand a Vision (alumnium mast on a RS rotomoulded hull) will take quite a beating for years.[/SIZE]

 
where are you located?

To be honest, I haven't sailed most of the boats mentioned here.

From my perspective the RS Vision fits the job.

Weight for dry sailing with dolly should not be an issue (125kg). Two small teenagers might struggle if the ramp is steep, but if you can rely on the fact that there is someone around to give a hand quickly this should not be an issue. two small adults should manage with no problem.

it offers a large versatility. 2 handed works great, but you can bring the whole family if you want. Singlehanded in medium winds is ok for a large adult etc..

just google "RS Vision" and click though the images - you'll get the ideal.

the construction is solid and simple, has a double floor, kite chute if you want to use it, otherwise just leave it.

pricing ins interesting too: http://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/rs-vision.html

 
maybe even better:

the RS Quest (the title sponsor of this thread)

to be honest, I haven't heard that much about it, but RS says, that "the RS Quest specifications were matched to sailing clubs across North America" and that it is "seated between the hugely popular RS Feva and the day sailing RS Vision."

"The Quest can be the right boat for replacing 420s, Lido 14s, Capri 14.2s, Hunter 140s, JY 15s, all in a modern package, with less maintenance, for a lower capital cost."

That sounds like a deal to me...

is is a little lighter than the vision (may 20kg in total).

Again, I don't really know the boat but the analysis is promising!

 
Last edited by a moderator:

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,188
1,087
South East England
One of the biggest factors, which has hardly been mentioned, is the maintenance regime. What looks at this distance to be a US College sailing preference for very tough, very heavy very unexciting boats appears to be primarily driven by maintenance. It appears that they want boats that will be very hard for the students to break and very easy for the staff to fix. With that as a primary aim they take a big hit on perfformance and all sorts of other things.

For a club fleet you've got to balance other factors too.

One of the most important aspects of a boat for club sailing is that people have got to want to get up out of a warm bed on Sunday morning and go and sail it, so the boat probably needs to be reasonably interesting. However if the boat is broken and can't be sailed that's no good either.

Rotomoulds are pretty good for training boats because they're very hard to break, and if someone does really contrive to break one you buy another. Sadly its probably easier to find the money replace a broken rotomould once in a blue moon than it is to find the volunteer labour to maintain a fleet of more delicate boats. But your mileage may vary.

So yes, perhaps the most important factor is to work out how these boats are going to be maintained and kept in sailing order. When you've worked out what you can maintain then you can work out what of your options will get people out of bed on Sunday morning and go sail. If the two sets dont overlap, well, I fear the project isn't viable...

 

Bill5

Right now
2,900
2,441
Western Canada
RS200: Really nice boats, but do not carry weight well.

Zim 15 vs RS Vision: “Cripplingly heavy” might be a bit misleading in a U.S. context of Buccaneers and Lightnings. A Vision is about the same weight as a 505, so launching with 2 persons will be no issue.

A Zim 15 should be stiffer, more responsive and ultimately more rewarding to sail (at least compared to a Vision without kite). But another aspect is how much effort you are willing to put into maintenance:

A light weight sandwich boat will require that the users handle it very carefully ashore and during launching. In addition such a clear coated (“sexy”) carbon mast is extremely sensitive to extended periods of sunlight. You will need some protection concept like coating with white protection paint and repainting it after 1 or 2 seasons or taking the masts down and covering them when not in use. Just putting on some new clear coat after 5 years will make it look nice again but neither undo any previous degradation nor provide any significant protection for the future.

On the other hand a Vision (alumnium mast on a RS rotomoulded hull) will take quite a beating for years.
I see Zim are selling some of the RS fleet now. The Quest and the Vision are on their website at $6999 and $9999 respectively. For starting a fleet you can't go wrong. People can go more high performance down the road.

 

skslr

Member
218
42
Germany
ZIM also offers the Hartley Wanderer. Weight is border line, but with no-sandwich GRP construction it should be relatively robust and straightforward to repair.

People would have a reasonable chance to stay dry (at least after launching) which should be appealing to novices and big boat sailors at the same time…

 




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