If you started a club racing fleet....
- Thread starter sailinspray
- Start date
The Topaz Argo would be a good fit for what you are looking for.
Best dinghy: Topper Topaz Argo | Sailing World
Best dinghy: Topper Topaz Argo | Sailing World
Fireball is a great little boat, matches everything on your list. The class is fairly euro orientated but plenty of them around here and new boats available.
http://www.fireball-international.ca
The RS 400 is a fantastic boat. No trap but has the excitement factor despite having to sit out. Only trouble is there are no old boats here.
Rotos are great for teaching and taking abuse. They do have to be sailed with some kind of mast head flotation if you're going to tip them over. I remember plenty of time sat on the underside of a topaz xenon even with the crappy little float it came with.
http://www.fireball-international.ca
The RS 400 is a fantastic boat. No trap but has the excitement factor despite having to sit out. Only trouble is there are no old boats here.
Rotos are great for teaching and taking abuse. They do have to be sailed with some kind of mast head flotation if you're going to tip them over. I remember plenty of time sat on the underside of a topaz xenon even with the crappy little float it came with.
cantp1
Anarchist
That's why I said "think outside the box." Most people think what you wrote.
But two adults sailing 29er's (up to age 70) they have a tonne of fun! Yes, they'll get wet and go swimming, but the smiles will be EAR to EAR above 10 knots.
Plus 29er's are light and they're Built. Ford. Tough.
dogwatch
Super Anarchist
Mostly, people who rent club boats are near-beginners.
Cement_Shoes
Super Anarchist
You are mistaken in what most clubs are looking for in club boats. The vast majority of people who might use a club boat would have neither the interest nor the ability to sail a 29er.
Club boats should be something that can be used to teach beginner sailing to adults as well as something that a bunch of middle aged, slightly overweight sailors can go out and have fun racing each other for bragging rights at the bar.
I would love to see a club with an active junior program have a few club owned 29ers but usually those are usually privately owned. Ford tough isn't often tough enough in a "rental fleet"
[SIZE=10.5pt]Why should a roto generally require a mast head float more than a GRP? Any dinghy as wide as the Xenon and considerable buoyancy in the cockpit side walls will turtle more likely than a dinghy that floats low in the water, no matter what hull material.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]A 29er may hold up well in regard to high rigg tensions and all that, but in this case it is more important how well the hull holds up when crashing onto the trolley for example.[/SIZE]
Even when leaving the required agility, cardio fitness, uncompromised knees/back and quick reactions aside, a 29er will not even carry 2 instances of the target audience properly due to the too low hull volume.
[SIZE=10.5pt]A 29er may hold up well in regard to high rigg tensions and all that, but in this case it is more important how well the hull holds up when crashing onto the trolley for example.[/SIZE]
Even when leaving the required agility, cardio fitness, uncompromised knees/back and quick reactions aside, a 29er will not even carry 2 instances of the target audience properly due to the too low hull volume.
Newport Coast
Member
This one
Oz Scout Sailor
Member
We are looking at the Topper Omega to replace our 16ft Corsairs. but aren't looking to race them. It more about training and fitting lots of kids on board. We considered the RS Vision. but thought the trapeze could be fun.
Rantifarian
Rantifarian
Hull weight 160kg-holy shit! I didn't think it was possible to make a heavier dinghy than the corsair. Any reason you decided against the envy dinghy? My old club will be making a similar choice in the next few years
mikemc
Member
mikemc
Member
I was going to suvvest the Fireball as fitting the bill but I'm biased...
Many clubs used Fireballs as their junior/club boats until the professionally built wooden boats arrived and made all of the previous fiberglass boats junk. The class has come full circle and Kevlar/glass boats are the standard now. Ready to sail out of the box for about 17k USD
Www.weathermarksailboats.com
Oz Scout Sailor
Member
Rant. our Corsairs have had so many repairs they probably weigh far more any way. Also there are 2 weights, 140 and 160, in the Topper literature so not sure which is the true hull weight. I mentioned in another thread we have an Envy but find it can't take as many kids and it wallows at bit when you load it with skipper and kids. Fantastic boat when its 2 or maybe 3 up. We use it on our training courses once they get used to the whole affair. A couple of the scout groups own several and love them, Lake Tuggerah or Lake Burley Griffin have 6 I think and several on Sydney's northern beaches.have them, Dinghy Sports local area.
We like the idea of having tough boats that are harder to damage. Plastics win that argument.. So its going to be Vision or Omega, but probably the latter although I like the weight of the Vision.
If I was looking for something to be a bit more race ready in a GRP then probably the Envy is a good choice for the club, but it has a symmetric spinnaker, not very up to date. A couple get raced on the harbour from Greenwich Sailing Club but I think Mark has failed to attract that market overall. Most racers are looking for an established faster class and it is going up against Tasar, NS and MG, Not to mention B14, 29er etc.
We like the idea of having tough boats that are harder to damage. Plastics win that argument.. So its going to be Vision or Omega, but probably the latter although I like the weight of the Vision.
If I was looking for something to be a bit more race ready in a GRP then probably the Envy is a good choice for the club, but it has a symmetric spinnaker, not very up to date. A couple get raced on the harbour from Greenwich Sailing Club but I think Mark has failed to attract that market overall. Most racers are looking for an established faster class and it is going up against Tasar, NS and MG, Not to mention B14, 29er etc.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
Guys, guys, guys... this is stupid.
What we have here is a classic case of a buyer issuing a spec for equipment, and a sales droid spitting out "Oh hell yes, you need the XYZ-3k! it's perfect for every application (because I sell it... or in this case, because you own/sail one yourself and have such strong bias that you can't see anything else)."
Beginners or youth in a Fireball? Club ownership of 29ers? That's worse than stupid.
I don't know what boat the OP would be best with, but the answers are found by looking carefully at the projected usage, the projected budget (and this -must- include both maintenance dollars and maintenance man-hours for success to occur). In the ideal world, we'd all have great boats that are exciting to sail and perfect for beginners; however we are stuck with reality.
I am working on starting a local fleet (not club-owned boats, though) and would have loved to go VX-1 but they are just too expensive. The Zim 15 is another great boat and still too expensive (for around here). My pick was the Buccaneer 18, we'll see how it goes.
FB- Doug
What we have here is a classic case of a buyer issuing a spec for equipment, and a sales droid spitting out "Oh hell yes, you need the XYZ-3k! it's perfect for every application (because I sell it... or in this case, because you own/sail one yourself and have such strong bias that you can't see anything else)."
Beginners or youth in a Fireball? Club ownership of 29ers? That's worse than stupid.
I don't know what boat the OP would be best with, but the answers are found by looking carefully at the projected usage, the projected budget (and this -must- include both maintenance dollars and maintenance man-hours for success to occur). In the ideal world, we'd all have great boats that are exciting to sail and perfect for beginners; however we are stuck with reality.
I am working on starting a local fleet (not club-owned boats, though) and would have loved to go VX-1 but they are just too expensive. The Zim 15 is another great boat and still too expensive (for around here). My pick was the Buccaneer 18, we'll see how it goes.
FB- Doug
Blackjack2
Member
Start out with a portsmouth or open class. Get a mix of some good quality stable boats that have a reliable rating and let the folks go at it. If they change on/off boats soon the first choice will surface (maybe after a season). Keep the portsmouth class going while the transition is taking place. It seems that most clubs with successful race programs have open and od events- with or without seperate starts. If U have just OD events only the folks who can be successful in that class will show up.
I was just at an club that took that approach and the bar was full of happy sailors at the finish. Their OD fleet was Flying Scots. The open fleet included MC's Thistles, Lasers, Jy's, a Raider and. a Y Flyer.
I've seen so many clubs with a hand full of OD's rotting in the corner because the wrong guess was made at the startup. Get em sailing, then racing and the cream will rise to the top.
I was just at an club that took that approach and the bar was full of happy sailors at the finish. Their OD fleet was Flying Scots. The open fleet included MC's Thistles, Lasers, Jy's, a Raider and. a Y Flyer.
I've seen so many clubs with a hand full of OD's rotting in the corner because the wrong guess was made at the startup. Get em sailing, then racing and the cream will rise to the top.
boatman28
New member
Consider looking at the Comet. Under $ 15K. Class has a new builder. No trapeze, no spinnaker. Seems to tick the other boxes. Not as complicated to sail as it may appear.
Newport Coast
Member
RS Vision can overpower beginners, a bit tender as well. More of an intermediate skill level.
RS Quest is about $9k US fitted with foredeck storage and choice of asym or symmetrical kite.
Durable, no gelcoat or glass to crack.
Videos here
https://www.youtube.com/user/RSsailingvideos
RS Quest is about $9k US fitted with foredeck storage and choice of asym or symmetrical kite.
Durable, no gelcoat or glass to crack.
Videos here
https://www.youtube.com/user/RSsailingvideos
High Flow
Super Anarchist
Good Job RS! I like those short videos about the construction of the Quest a lot!
Just my opinion: The RS Quest scores all the points for a club racing program:
- Easy to handle
- Reasonably lightweight (compared to buccaneer)
- easy to sail, double floor,
- dry sailing up to 12-15 knots (depends on waves of course)
- option for spinnaker if you want one
- very interesting pricing
- robust boats
- maintenance: cheap sails, all parts available from RS, but as for the hull, you'll need to replace bashed up hulls with new ones as the repair is rather difficult due to the used material. Still interesting from a cost perspective.
- The quest was designed for the US market. I'm not sure how many dealers are around but to me this sounds like the best option available.
Just my opinion: The RS Quest scores all the points for a club racing program:
- Easy to handle
- Reasonably lightweight (compared to buccaneer)
- easy to sail, double floor,
- dry sailing up to 12-15 knots (depends on waves of course)
- option for spinnaker if you want one
- very interesting pricing
- robust boats
- maintenance: cheap sails, all parts available from RS, but as for the hull, you'll need to replace bashed up hulls with new ones as the repair is rather difficult due to the used material. Still interesting from a cost perspective.
- The quest was designed for the US market. I'm not sure how many dealers are around but to me this sounds like the best option available.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
Right... because a design from 1929 is so difficult to improve on
:mellow:
Actually the Comet is a pretty cool boat, I like them a lot better than Snipes (largely because they are bigger and have a LOT more horsepower) but they don't handle a chop very well and most of the ones I've seen in the past 20 years are... well, not in such good shape for a club racer.
How about this Comet instead?
www.comaryacht.com/en/smart/comet-smart-21-od/
If you could really get one sailing for $7k, and the assumption that it will have better longevity/lower maintenance than FJs/420s holds true, then this might be the best option for program boats... schools & clubs.
http://www.rssailing.com/us/explore/us-rs-quest
IMHO the talk about how difficult the plastic is to repair is basically unfamiliarity with new material. I heard the same kind of talk about fiberglass in the 1960s (although it was combined with a lot of ranting about how fiberglass boat would ruin sailing, whereas molded plastic seems to be looked at more positively). Of course it can be repaired, it was built in the first place! The question is, can the average sailor reasonably acquire the tools & materials & skills to make needed repairs? OTOH maybe a hull trade-in is a better idea after all.
It's a little bigger and a little lighter than the 420/FJ, my question is the sailing characteristics: is the range of competitive weights any wider? Is it a bit more responsive to shifting gears? In short-course racing, what are the critical skills that program or club sailors are going to walk away with? BTW I like the option of either/both asym and old-fashioned spinnakers.
I also feel it's only fair to mention the comparable Topper boats, the Magno ( bit smaller, a bit more expensive) and the Argo (more comparable to the Vision). I have experience with the Topper Topaz Uno+ and they're great little boats. I just spent some time sailing a Laser Pico and the T-Topaz is worlds better.
FB- Doug
Newport Coast
Member
You have to try really really hard to break today's 3-layer PE rotomolded hulls. Years ago the remedy was plastic welding, but since G-Flex epoxy arrived, not so difficult. We had a Tera dropped accidentally from vertical onto a 2x4, cracked on centerline just aft of the mast step area. Glued it with G-Flex and 3 years on no problem.
