ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[Bruce Hudson]

blowing 12-15 tomorrow

Blowing? 

Just a mere zephyr.

(I'm a little jealous. Winter here. My highlight was lighting the fire, and being warmed by it while sipping a hot cup of creamy mushroom soup. My fantasy is that someone steps up and does the hard fact finding work needed to get EurILCA and ILCA singing kumbaya in harmony, and I'm just a spectator. Two boats in one day is just plain greedy. Love it.) 

 

[dgmckim]

Short term? Well, SailFlow tells me it’s going to be blowing 12-15 tomorrow from noon on with temps in the mid 70’s. It is our Canada Day holiday, so I am going to have a two-boat sailing afternoon with some time in my Laser and some time in my Lightning.

that sounds like a good afternoon! have fun

 

[tillerman]

Short term? Well, SailFlow tells me it’s going to be blowing 12-15 tomorrow from noon on with temps in the mid 70’s. It is our Canada Day holiday, so I am going to have a two-boat sailing afternoon with some time in my Laser and some time in my Lightning.

Enjoy!
 

 

[jgh66]

IPLore - I have always appreciated your contributions to these threads combining as they do expert analysis of the legal issues involved and excellent commentary on the negotiating strategies of the various parties, all from an unbiased perspective.

Please keep up the good work.

IP, Wess, Tiller and Bruce. 

I think it's great  that you all come to the point now, and that you explain what you are standing for. This makes it much easier to understand why and what you are posting here. 

IP: seems you are fighting hard against GSL and PSA. You can do that, I have no problem with that. But I don't think that it's correct to run a defamation campagne against people like Bruce and me,  and post things that are incorrect while you must know better if you really have some experience with international IP law. What I mean are your comments to the legal situation in europe and also on the current legal case in the USA. To me it seems like you are prefering to support LPE if this can help to support your point of view. Maybe you can explain what Berne means and when GER FRA and USA signed that contract.... just as a starting point. 

Bruce: you seem to support GSL, and you have leaked some internal stuff like Alex B and Jean Luc are taking money from LPE, and that this is the reason of the conflict between ILCA and EURILCA. As you all have seen in the Roses video it is more likely that Alex is just representing the position of the majority of the sailers. I don't think that this kind of unproven leaked information does help in solving the conflicts between ILCA and EURILCA. 

I would love to read a fair discussion, proper legal information and not strongly biased halftruths and defamation campains here. The way you are running the discussion here does not help the Laser Class to come out of the mud, I believe. 

GSL is part of at least of the LCMA as TU explained so nobody can do anything about that at the moment. 

My point of view: If the ballot is coming up a full set if true and valid informations on the whole situation should be availible, so that class members can make a proper decision to vote on changing the class rules. I found this forum, as this seems to be the only place where there is an ongoing discussion on the disputes, and I was looking for some more infos than what ILCA, EURILCA and the german class were posting on their pages. 

As a former boatbuilder, technical director of a former SMOD manufacturer and boatdesigner I might be a little bit biased to generally support the rights of designers, but I would not try to post "alternative facts" to support this. I can accept that BK has sold his rights to GSL if he believes that this is the best for the class, while I don't really like that the rights are in the hands of one single builder, that may also have very own commercial interests. 

Ah, we had some great Laser racing yesterday,39 deg Celsius, gusting up to 25kn.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Please show an example my "attacks on the ILCA class officers" and I shall unreservedly apologize. I have been subjected to several years of a smear campaign, with hundreds of comments which mischaracterize what I actually said. 

You could start by apologizing to Jeff Martin's family and friends for all your suggestions that Jeff was in some way corrupted by LP and that the announcements from the class were misleading and that his intentions were not in the best interest of class members.  If I could quote from his obituary on the ILCA website:

"Jeff’s dedication to the sport of sailing was unparalleled, having served as the Executive Secretary of the International Laser Class Association for 40 years. Jeff was a cornerstone of Laser events, having worked at every Laser Open World Championship except the first one in 1974 where he was a competitor. "

Forty years of service to the sport!  Perhaps you can start by finding in your heart the courage to make an "unreserved apology"  to JM.  Whether you thought the ends justified the means its time to apologize now for your campaign of innuendo and muck spreading..

Also, to show your balance here, please comment on IPLore's misquoting of Heini Wellmann. Do you agree with it? Do you think it was intentional or not?

Yes!  I 100% agree with IPL's characterization of HW's comment.

  You suggested that ILCA was a party to the builders contract and you were wrong.  You suggested that HW did know the content of the builders contracts and then started sliding around like a puck on ice to suggest he knew some of the content or the general content.......all of us reading HW's letter understood it to mean that the ILCA could not get involved in deciding the conflict because ILCA was not a party to the contract and ILCA did not know the actual content, the precise content or the exact content. Call it what you will. I agree with IPL's characterization of what HW was saying  and not yours.

Further, do you have a position on why Heini Wellmann allegedly signed the petition calling for Tracy Usher and Eric Faust?

NO I do not. Because it is "alleged".....and it is alleged by you, a notoriously unreliable source. 

However I will comment on the "fact" that Robert Scheidt  and Beat Heinz signed the petition because both of them have publicly announced that they signed the petition (which only got 650+/- signatures).  I do not think that Robert Scheidt is a bad person and I certainly do not think he is corrupted by LP. Frankly, he is a hero to the sport. If you read why they signed the petition, it is because they are worried about losing the Laser name. It has huge nostalgic value for many Laser sailors.    Which says to me that Tracy and the ILCA need to improve their communication with laser sailors and should have been more consultative with regional leaders before announcing the possible changes.  Gouv nailed this point about 20 pages earlier. 

Respectively, I have not changed my position on this. The IYRU agreement which ILCA was a party to, was incorporated into the builders contract. The builder's contract and the IYRU are both available for anyone to check. The IYRU prescribed some of the content of the builder's contract.

The builders contract was not available until after the case started!!!!!!

My main point for raising the above was to show that IPLore misquoted Heini Wellmann. I have many examples of IPLore misquoting me.

Wow. That's your main point????

Yes and no.

Uh oh, here goes the ice puck again.

Where I have changed my position results from developments since then. For example, World Sailing have introduced their Olympic Equipment policy, which in no small way presses the 'reset button' for the contracts.

No. Only because of recent developments.

So , just to be clear , before the ice puck curves away again. If WS had not introduced their FRAND policy, you still think that Global Sailing is the best person to appoint builders?  If ILCA and WS, approve a builder, you think that a New Zealand company that owns the Australian builder should have a right of veto of who builds Laser in North America and Europe???

That is still your view?   And you are unbiased?

For the Laser class, my preference under the new system is for the ILCA to select the builders. The Laser class is an unusual case because it has the capacity to pay staff to do that. 

Well a majority of Laser sailors think that the ILCA and WS have sufficient independence and knowledge to approve builders without the obviously conflicted input or veto power of GS....both then and now.

Yes.

Bruce Kirby Inc had clear rights for the design of the Laser, and their were contracts which governed those rights. The royalty is modest (2% of the wholesale boat) and the entity Bruce Kirby Inc is a saleable asset, which can be bought by another entity, in this case Global Sailing. For now, there is no rule which deals with any conflict of interest, however in the future, maybe there should be.

Designer's royalties apply for other designers of other classes as well, like the 49er and the Nacra 17.

---

I hope that clears up a few things.  Not really

Your post suggests that you would still have liked to see Global sailing control the Laser class, and that only the introduction of WS's FRAND policy changes your mind.

 

[tillerman]

Your post suggests that you would still have liked to see Global sailing control the Laser class, and that only the introduction of WS's FRAND policy changes your mind.

I have to admit I don't know much about Global Sailing other than that
a)  GS owns Performance Sailcraft Australia.
b)  GS is owned by the Spencer family of New Zealand.
c)  In 2010 GS advertised for dealers in Europe to become distributors for "the Bruce Kirby designed Olympic Sailing Dinghy."
d)  GS bought BKI from Bruce Kirby.

As he is from New Zealand, I assume that Gantt probably knows a little more about Global Sailing and the Spencers than I do, so I wonder if he could share any knowledge he has about them.

What is it about Global Sailing that has made Gantt such a strong supporter of them? Does he know any of the Spencer family personally?

I would even turn off my "ignore" of Gantt to read that.

 

[Looper]

From the LP Facebook Page:

LASERPERFORMANCE – INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION TRADEMARK LICENSE AGREEMENT SIGNED TODAY

Similar to the document signed by LP and the Sunfish Class, this Agreement is in the form that LP has been asking for in the last 3 years. A big THANK YOU to World Sailing for facilitating the process. We have again invited World Sailing and ILCA to inspect the UK-based Laser Manufacturing facilities. Let’s hope the inspection can happen as soon as possible.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

You could start by apologizing to Jeff Martin's family and friends for all your suggestions that Jeff was in some way corrupted by LP and that the announcements from the class were misleading and that his intentions were not in the best interest of class members. 

No problem. Just show me where I said that Jeff Martin was corrupted by LP.

With the deepest respect Eyesailor, what you are saying about me is incorrect.

The builders contract was not available until after the case started!!!!!!

That's 100% correct, though it was not all about the builders contracts. In 2011 there were people who voted early who wanted to change their vote because they felt they were mislead by ILCA.

I didn't just say that the ILCA statements in 2011 leading up to the vote were just misleading, from 2013 I said that ILCA made incorrect or false statements. I think that you would be hard pressed to change people's minds about this. Here's a post by Mr Clean which was made before I made any statement that ILCA made false statements:

interestingly enough, the libel argument seems silly until you see that (a) the ILCA made at least one verifiable false statement of fact (when introducing the builder-change vote) and (

it straight-up damaged Kirby in quantifiable ways - that's pretty much the definition of libel, and is the first thing I'm seeing that really puts the ILCA in a bad legal spot.

And here's the sort of thing I was saying:

Again, this does not talk in any way about intentions of Jeff Martin or Heini Wellmann whose names appear under these false statements, it just means that the statements were false.

Maybe you are referring to statements like this?:

It seems quite possible at least one person, whose initials JM are on lots of contract documents, had either forgotten that he had signed them or had his head buried in the sand. (Remember we ILCA members were told of the opinion formed that the `patents' had expired by the ILCA`s Lawyers who breathtakingly admitted they had not seen all the contracts, when providing the ILCA that advice.) Note too that JM had a role both in the ILCA and ISAF - some might see that as an interesting conflict too.

 Note that the contracts were publicly available in 2013.

Yes!  I 100% agree with IPL's characterization of HW's comment.

This does not address my question. I asked about IPLore misquoting Heini Wellmann. I'm fairly sure you are not agreeing with the practice of misquoting. My real question is whether or not you thin IPLore deliberately misquoted Heini or not.

Further, do you have a position on why Heini Wellmann allegedly signed the petition calling for Tracy Usher and Eric Faust?

NO I do not. Because it is "alleged".....and it is alleged by you, a notoriously unreliable source. 

The reason I said alleged is because someone could easily pretend to be Heini Wellmann on the petition site. I grabbed a screen shot showing Heini's name appearing.



The petition and it's exact wording is here.

So , just to be clear , before the ice puck curves away again. If WS had not introduced their FRAND policy, you still think that Global Sailing is the best person to appoint builders?  If ILCA and WS, approve a builder, you think that a New Zealand company that owns the Australian builder should have a right of veto of who builds Laser in North America and Europe???

That is still your view?   And you are unbiased?

Thank you for clarifying your question. Personally, no I never believed Global Sailing should have right of veto of builders. In my view that is a conflict of interest. I think the best entity to select builders is the ILCA. 

No, I am not unbiased, nor claim to be. I have a bias towards Bruce Kirby (and Ian Bruce) for designing, developing and promoting the Laser in the first place. I also have a bias towards the ILCA as an organisation, and want to see it run as professionally as reasonably possible. To a large extent, I believe Tracy Usher and Eric Faust are doing exactly that, and I have said so many times. Regarding Jeff Martin, I have been consistently thankful for his many years of tireless service to the class, and my approach for the most part was to vigorously question what the heck happened in 2011. Heini Wellmann also volunteered his time and his commitment is there for all to see. We owe all ILCA World Council members a vote of thanks for their best efforts, particularly over the last 10 years or so. And yes, that includes Jean Luc and Alex. Having a bias towards the ILCA does not mean I am mindless in my support. If something is questionable, then you bet I am going to question it. I was first a member of the ILCA in 1983. After some years away from the class, I rejoined more recently.

I have a bias towards PSJ and PSA who I believe do a good job. I don't know much about Global Sailing, other than it shares stakeholders with PSA. I am very familiar with NZ and Australian business structures, and Global Sailing is a separate entity to PSA; Global sailing does not own PSA.

I also admit to having a bias against Farzad Rastegar (and his group of companies) for LaserPerformance not complying with contractual obligations, and leading a company which has made multiple public accusational statements which in my view are not in the best interests of the class.

Your post suggests that you would still have liked to see Global sailing control the Laser class, and that only the introduction of WS's FRAND policy changes your mind.

No, you misunderstand what I wrote above so I shall clarify.

First, a small mistake Eyesailor, I was talking about Global sailing selecting builders, not controlling the Laser class as you put forward. I have never, ever supported the notion of any commercial interests controlling the Laser class and have said so previously. Specifically, I do not support Global Sailing running the Laser class. Nor do I support LaserPerformance, Velum, SailLaser, LaserPerformance United, MacLaren or any other entity owned by Farzad Rastegar controlling the Laser class.

Under the old contract system, I believe that in the same way that builders can change ownership, Bruce Kirby Inc could too. The way it was set up in the early 1970s Bruce Kirby Inc was to select builders worldwide. Under the old contracts, I believe they were designed to allow transfer with conditions in the IYRU agreement spelling out how. So in my view, the attempts made to transfer ownership were legitimate.

Because two owners of Global Sailing are also stakeholders of PSA, in my view GS selecting builders is a conflict of interest.

The World Sailing Olympic Equipment Policy which was formed in 2018 and ratified earlier this year changes that, and replaces the old contracts. I think it will be revealed shortly (if it hasn't already) that ILCA will be responsible for selecting builders.

I support ILCA selecting builders. 

I have to admit I don't know much about Global Sailing other than that
a)  GS owns Performance Sailcraft Australia.
b)  GS is owned by the Spencer family of New Zealand.
c)  In 2010 GS advertised for dealers in Europe to become distributors for "the Bruce Kirby designed Olympic Sailing Dinghy."
d)  GS bought BKI from Bruce Kirby.

As he is from New Zealand, I assume that Gantt probably knows a little more about Global Sailing and the Spencers than I do, so I wonder if he could share any knowledge he has about them.

What is it about Global Sailing that has made Gantt such a strong supporter of them? Does he know any of the Spencer family personally?

I would even turn off my "ignore" of Gantt to read that.

I had never heard of Global Sailing until 2013, and most of my information has come as a result of the legal action. The Spencers are mentioned from time to time in NZ media, in recent times not so much. (Also my focus has been more international in recent years; I spent more outside of NZ during 2014-2018 than in it).

No, I do not know any of the Spencer family personally, and have never knowingly met or personally communicated with any.

---

I see you Eyesailor are based in Bordeaux. I was based nearby just south of Auch for a couple of months in 2018.

---

Bruce: you seem to support GSL, and you have leaked some internal stuff like Alex B and Jean Luc are taking money from LPE, and that this is the reason of the conflict between ILCA and EURILCA. As you all have seen in the Roses video it is more likely that Alex is just representing the position of the majority of the sailers. I don't think that this kind of unproven leaked information does help in solving the conflicts between ILCA and EURILCA. 

I hope the above clears up my approach to Global Sailing.

I was told multiple times by people who were there what Farzad Rastegar allegedly said at a meeting on 22 May about Alex B and Jeff Martin (not Jean Luc). I was aware of others talking about it, and that some who were part of the meeting (video link etc) did not hear Farzad Rastegar say it. In my view, the consequence of the statements were driving ILCA and EurILCA further apart. I think you will find that my publicly releasing it played a small part in dealing with what was already a destructive element. I was correct in that the focus did shift back to Rastegar, who at a later meeting had an explanation. (If you want further details, please talk to someone who was there).

I am very motivated to heal the rift between ILCA and EurILCA.

My point of view: If the ballot is coming up a full set if true and valid informations on the whole situation should be availible, so that class members can make a proper decision to vote on changing the class rules. I found this forum, as this seems to be the only place where there is an ongoing discussion on the disputes, and I was looking for some more infos than what ILCA, EURILCA and the german class were posting on their pages. 

As a former boatbuilder, technical director of a former SMOD manufacturer and boatdesigner I might be a little bit biased to generally support the rights of designers, but I would not try to post "alternative facts" to support this. I can accept that BK has sold his rights to GSL if he believes that this is the best for the class, while I don't really like that the rights are in the hands of one single builder, that may also have very own commercial interests. 

Excellent!!!!

Ah, we had some great Laser racing yesterday,39 deg Celsius, gusting up to 25kn.

39 degrees in Germany?!?!?!! Wow. Too hot for a wetsuit, though the water would cool you for sure.

25 knots is fun.

 

[Wess]

From the LP Facebook Page:

LASERPERFORMANCE – INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION TRADEMARK LICENSE AGREEMENT SIGNED TODAY

Similar to the document signed by LP and the Sunfish Class, this Agreement is in the form that LP has been asking for in the last 3 years. A big THANK YOU to World Sailing for facilitating the process. We have again invited World Sailing and ILCA to inspect the UK-based Laser Manufacturing facilities. Let’s hope the inspection can happen as soon as possible.

Thanks for posting some actual noteworthy information!  In and of itself it does not mean much but its at least not a step backwards.  A step forward maybe.  Maybe its a sign that they all agree to punt on the challenging parts of FRAND terms and just put a wallpaper agreement in place and let the businesses and courts (if it ever got there) decide if terms offered were fair and reasonable or not. That is one - maybe the only - face saving way out for all of them.  They can says its FRAND never reveal the details of the contracts and life goes on...

... except the US supply problem would still be a problem.

Be interesting to see what ILCA says if anything.  Hello @SFBayLaser and or @aroy210677.  Got milk?

 

[IPLore]

IP,

IP: seems you are fighting hard against GSL and PSA. You can do that, I have no problem with that. But I don't think that it's correct to run a defamation campagne against people like Bruce and me,  and post things that are incorrect while you must know better if you really have some experience with international IP law. What I mean are your comments to the legal situation in europe and also on the current legal case in the USA. To me it seems like you are prefering to support LPE if this can help to support your point of view. Maybe you can explain what Berne means and when GER FRA and USA signed that contract.... just as a starting point. 

Ah, we had some great Laser racing yesterday,39 deg Celsius, gusting up to 25kn.

Hello jgh,

First of all, if I have created any impression that I wanted to denigrate your contribution to this forum, you have my truly sincere apologies. I enjoy your contribution.  I tried to find where I created that misunderstanding.  You asked why BKI and GS did not bring an authorship suit in Germany. In reply, I gave three likely reasons why. Possibly my answer was misunderstood. The answer was not meant to discourage you or insult you, simply to explain my educated opinion.  Thus far nobody has brought a suit in Germany,(possibly due to Jurisdiction and that corporations cannot claim authorship in Germany).  If they do we can revisit....but I assure you that I was only sharing my opinion, and if the construction of my language caused any offense then that is my fault and you have my apology.   

I am not fighting against GS and PSA. On the contrary, I hope that PSA continue to build Lasers, continue to use the brand name and prosper. I even suggested in an earlier post in this same thread that there was an opportunity for PSA to supply Lasers to the West Coast USA, hardly the post of someone fighting against PSA. 

Six years ago, I leveled one criticism at GS, which I felt was fair. I criticized their support (instigation?)  of the law suit against the Class Association. I think the class did the right thing and I felt the law suit  was based on a very weak claim (tortious interference) which would be thrown out. It was subsequently summarily dismissed. It was not based on taking sides, merely an objective opinion.   Its ancient history.

I have criticized BOTH  GS and LP for failing to settle their longstanding contractual law suit. Since both sides think they are right, GS doubtless thinks I am against them ...and LP thinks I am against LP.  I think the 6+ year law suit is asinine. They are both damaging the class and their businesses more than any possible result from the case. Since we do not know who is causing the settlement discussions to fail, we cannot place the blame at either of them, merely both.We have heard enough to know that Rastegaar finds it difficult to compromise but we dont actually know why the case drags on.

It is public knowledge that LP and PSA have a terrible dysfunctional relationship based on distrust at the moment. There are two consequences. 1. The Class suffers and 2. It is going to make it much harder to arrive at a licensing agreement

I doubt that LP think I am preferring them!!  I was virulent in my criticism of how they attacked the Sunfish class. I have advocated removing the trademark rule in the Laser class .

"The problem with being neutral is that both sides think you are a traitor". :mellow:

The Berne convention was first signed in 1886 (a couple of years before I graduated from law school ). Folks would be falling off their seats in boredom if we started to explain it . Here is a link https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/

 

[Wess]

IP, Wess, Tiller and Bruce. 

I think it's great  that you all come to the point now, and that you explain what you are standing for. This makes it much easier to understand why and what you are posting here. 

IP: seems you are fighting hard against GSL and PSA. You can do that, I have no problem with that. But I don't think that it's correct to run a defamation campagne against people like Bruce and me,  and post things that are incorrect while you must know better if you really have some experience with international IP law. What I mean are your comments to the legal situation in europe and also on the current legal case in the USA. To me it seems like you are prefering to support LPE if this can help to support your point of view. Maybe you can explain what Berne means and when GER FRA and USA signed that contract.... just as a starting point. 

Bruce: you seem to support GSL, and you have leaked some internal stuff like Alex B and Jean Luc are taking money from LPE, and that this is the reason of the conflict between ILCA and EURILCA. As you all have seen in the Roses video it is more likely that Alex is just representing the position of the majority of the sailers. I don't think that this kind of unproven leaked information does help in solving the conflicts between ILCA and EURILCA. 

I would love to read a fair discussion, proper legal information and not strongly biased halftruths and defamation campains here. The way you are running the discussion here does not help the Laser Class to come out of the mud, I believe. 

GSL is part of at least of the LCMA as TU explained so nobody can do anything about that at the moment. 

My point of view: If the ballot is coming up a full set if true and valid informations on the whole situation should be availible, so that class members can make a proper decision to vote on changing the class rules. I found this forum, as this seems to be the only place where there is an ongoing discussion on the disputes, and I was looking for some more infos than what ILCA, EURILCA and the german class were posting on their pages. 

As a former boatbuilder, technical director of a former SMOD manufacturer and boatdesigner I might be a little bit biased to generally support the rights of designers, but I would not try to post "alternative facts" to support this. I can accept that BK has sold his rights to GSL if he believes that this is the best for the class, while I don't really like that the rights are in the hands of one single builder, that may also have very own commercial interests. 

Ah, we had some great Laser racing yesterday,39 deg Celsius, gusting up to 25kn.

And I am not ignoring you but I honestly don't know what you are asking or how to answer the question.  This is honesty not intended as an insult but I can't even begin to understand how you could possibly read what IPLore has written in this and the last thread and conclude he support LPE and does not not PA or GS.  Its like reading Karl Marx and saying he believes in capitalism.  I don't always agree with IPLore (though I often do and he has often been proven to be accurate in his analysis) but you and I lack some basic common context or understanding if you can come to the view you (apparently) have.  So how do I answer what I stand for... uh generally I guess I would summarize it this way...

* That class volunteers should be given a benefit of the doubt as of all the parties involved they have the least vested interest.

* That class actions should be and were in the last go around very much aligned with their members interests.

* I do not mean that class volunteers should not be above (reasonable and fact based) question and in fact I have expressed some reservation that the actions they took this time around may not have been in the best interest of their members or even Laser sailors generally... that was not my view initially but I was surprised to learn that many of our European Laser sailors hold LPE in high regard and don't want them gone... while I may disagree being in the US where the situation is different it seems clear to me that ILCA had to know that many of their members would potentially not be supportive of their proposed changes.  So the basic thing I stand for is the class should follow the will of its members and in this case I was surprised to learn that our members in the majority may have differing views of the class.  I guess my bottom line is this never should have gotten so far that a vote would actually be in doubt.  That was knowable it seems and class leadership maybe moved too far too fast without taking or considering the temperature of its members.  That does not mean that I think for a moment that they are not doing what they think best and right. But as I learned what I think best and right (ditch LPE) may in fact not be best and right for most members especially in Europe.

* I think LPE sucks as a Laser supplier in NA and I would love to see them gone. On the flip side I suspect in so doing the class would be fractured, the class would be dragged into court and members dues used (out of necessity) to pay legal bills rather than to advance Laser sailing.  Both those things I am opposed to.  I also have to grudgingly admit that LPE is a legitimate business that makes a good product (when you can get it... couldn't resist) at a fair price and has certain legal rights that I suspect WS and GS/PSA are attempting to trample on.  To what extent ILCA is a witting or unwitting participant in that I don't know and couldn't guess. I can just say that clearly the relationship is broken between ILCA and LPE such that LPE at least clearly sees ILCA as the villian.  That is a stunner to me also after the last go around in court.  My guess and its purely a guess is that WS and ILCA are sick of LPE (and LPE sick of them) and just want the mess to go away and PSA is walking the same path they did in the first go around where they try to expand their business into what is factually LPE territory.  Now... my guess is this is where and why you might say that I or other are LPE supporters but that is far from truth.  Already clearly said I would like them gone.  But unlike others who post here I am not going to lie or twist facts to suit my view.  I have to fairly admit that many in Europe have a different view, that LPE has certain rights, that PSA appears to have certain ambitions (tracking same direction for many years), and WS and ILCA would likely love less drama in their lives and LPE seems to equal drama.

Come to think of it after a lightening strike and resulting mess to our cruising trimaran this weekend I would like less drama too!

Now what do YOU stand for?

 

[EYESAILOR]

Thank you for clarifying your question. Personally, no I never believed Global Sailing should have right of veto of builders. In my view that is a conflict of interest. I think the best entity to select builders is the ILCA. 

Agreed

No, I am not unbiased, nor claim to be. ..I have a bias towards PSJ and PSA who I believe do a good job...I also admit to having a bias against Farzad Rastegar (and his group of companies)

Fair enough, you are entitled to your biases.

 I have never, ever supported the notion of any commercial interests controlling the Laser class and have said so previously. Specifically, I do not support Global Sailing running the Laser class. Nor do I support ...any entity owned by Farzad Rastegar controlling the Laser class.

Because two owners of Global Sailing are also stakeholders of PSA, in my view GS selecting builders is a conflict of interest.

I support ILCA selecting builders. 

Great. The ILCA did the right thing in 2011-13. We can all sit around the fire, singing kumbayah and hug each other.

I see you Eyesailor are based in Bordeaux. I was based nearby just south of Auch for a couple of months in 2018.

I just drink the stuff. I am not based there. Im jealous. I hope they were the summer months.

25 knots is fun.

Too much fun for these old bones.

 

[jgh66]

We have again invited World Sailing and ILCA to inspect the UK-based Laser Manufacturing facilities. Let’s hope the inspection can happen as soon as possible

Whats's about their chinese facilities, that they have mentioned in their Anti Trust document? Does anybody know anything about that? Who is controlling that? 

 

[EYESAILOR]

Whats's about their chinese facilities, that they have mentioned in their Anti Trust document? Does anybody know anything about that? Who is controlling that? 

Getting ready to swamp the Australian market with cheap Chinese manufactured Lasers just as soon as the trademark requirement is removed?

Don't worry, Im jest kidding. Pass the marshmallows and lets have another round of Kumbaya.

 

[Wess]

Whats's about their chinese facilities, that they have mentioned in their Anti Trust document? Does anybody know anything about that? Who is controlling that? 

They make Sunfish and other boats there now. If A FRAND world is forced on them it would likely make a lot of business sense to move Laser production there as well if quality can be maintained.  Sunfish from there initially had issues if I recall but they seem to be past that (as well as severe shortages that plagued that class).  YMMV.

You ask many questions (that could appear biased) do you answer them as well?

 

[Wess]

I love you man. In a safe Laser kinda way.

 

[Alan Crawford]

@Gouvernail you've very nicely shown that following a low tech approach, i.e. picking up the phone, can be very effective! Thanks for the initiative and let's hope others will follow your lead. Who knows, perhaps you're one of the first "real" Laser sailers Mr. Rastegar has heard from?

 

[jgh66]

You ask many questions (that could appear biased) do you answer them as well?

No, that's not biased. I was just wondering that they mentioned a chinese facility in their Anti Trust document, but not in their FB comment. 

I've seen that the 2019 boats had a different HIN (GB-OQT...) than the older boats (GB-PSE...), so I was wondering if they had moved production completely  to china. As you said, such a move often leads to some quality problems, so buying a 2019 ex charter boat for my son could lead to trouble. Might be better to look for an older boat, or one from PSA than. Somebody also had posted infos on PSE, in which it was said that they only have one employee, who has an adress in the USA. I'm just asking if somebody has infos on what's going on in the UK. I just don't really trust boat building companies that are not run by sailers, but some "money guys", and would prefer to be able to buy a boat from a builder I trust. So I am generally standing behind ILCA and WS in respect to going from SMOD to MMOD.

On the termination of LPE: I really don't stand behind them. I believe these are the wrong people to build an olympic class boat. But the termination of LPE as a builder in the beginning of the season, with new charter boats needed for some big events and for sailers just one year before the olympics.....I can really understand that my fellow euro sailers were more than pissed about that. There should have been alternative builders ready to supply boats which is nearly impossible at the beginning of the season, and the current trademark situation. If LPE has refused to allow inspections since 2015 ILCA could have done that just after the sales period, let's say in june 2018, and with some kind of strategy to be able to legally install new builders in short time. So first a members vote on the name change, than new builders, and finally the termination would have been good. An olympic class without a builder is even worse than an olympic class with a bad builder. 

 

[tillerman]

From the ILCA Facebook Page

 

[Board skiff]

Not the most conciliatory of messages from ILCA. Did they not get @Gouvernail‘s team spirit memo?