ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,013
2,392
Rhode Island
I like the Coca Cola analogy but draw a different conclusion.  To me it shows that you can comply with competition law whilst entering exclusive agreements, by virtue of regularly running a transparent tender process, but these agreements are not FRAND. Which demonstrates that WS did not have to create a FRAND policy, they misguidedly chose to do so to get Luca off their back. 
Wouldn't it have been much easier to punish Luca by awarding the Olympic spots to the D-Zero?

 
153
90
This just in from the AUS Laser Class;

It is important for us to get the strongest support for this vote we can. Paradoxically, although it is European law which has created the need for World Sailing to change the terms of the Olympic agreement necessitating this Laser class rule change, it seems the European Laser sailors are the most questioning of the rule change and potentially the least likely to support it. A strong Yes vote is expected from North and South America, Asia and Africa where the current boat and equipment supply arrangements are problematic. Though we are fortunate to have good supply and arrangements with PSA the ALCA strongly supports this rule change as it should guarantee that we retain Olympic status and as well as;

  • [SIZE=11pt]Allowing speedier implementation of equipment improvements like the long awaited new radial mast bottom section.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=11pt]Allowing ILCA to appoint builders to better service currently poorly services markets particularly in Latin America and Africa and to a lesser extent North America.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=11pt]Bringing more competitive tension to pricing of the Laser but more especially sails and equipment through greater diversity of supply.[/SIZE]

Over to you.  

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Chris Caldecoat, posting on his Facebook page in response to Lutz, who seems to be posting the same post in multiple places.

Lutz Hirsch
So what you are saying is you do not want to allow the ILCA to gain a little more control over the sport that it’s members participate in by telling members to vote no, you would prefer the rest of the World to adhere to the German and Italians and there chosen dictator dictating what we should do and support, you prefer we all listen to your lies and slander of a well run organisation and group. I guess this does sound very German and Italian and I guess that's why we will disagree and we can see what comes of the vote that is being presented in a democratic manner.

I understand you are the fellow in the Masters meeting in Roses that acted more like a Union line breaker paid to disrupt what was supposed to be an informative Q and A meeting and I could be wrong but you are Alex’ partner from the ILCA World Council and Farzad's new conduit to our meetings. I am not sold you have the best interests of the sport at heart sorry.

ILCA, Tracy and Fazad signed an agreement yesterday so the ILCA could keep managing sail races called Laser. I have not heard of anyone not wanting this to happen, we did feel it would never happen and this would never be signed, hence the ILCA branding push. This agreement is positive, I cannot see how this is not positive.
You are digging with the Weather Helm, the ILCA registered its ILCA trademark and with a company, who cares, no one, normal practise we all knew about it and your beloved Farzad just signed the doc mentioned above agreeing the class retains its name ILCA and ownership.

C Rig’s, for 6 years the technical committee of the ILCA with the ILCA boards approval has looked into possible developments, reports have been made annually to the ILCA board. What is wrong with trying to answer questions about long terms development questions for the class, this is exactly what has happened. Your European Chair and then LP Board Member Bill Crane have all the reports over these years and have agreed with developments. Your Italian and German dealer are the reasons there is hysteria about this in Europe and you are selling it as delivered by the Anti Christ, ILCA made the mistake of allowing the Italian and German Dealer into our Board meeting last year, a show of good will as communication between ILCA and Farzad had broken down and these two class supportive dealers where appointed as European mediators. As there has been for the past 6 years we talked about developments, the C Rigs being one, our trust was broken by the Italian and German Dealer who reported publicly that the ILCA was launching the C rigs, more so to encourage politicly unrest against between Eurilca members and ILCA. ILCA as in the minutes of the meeting agreed for Class testing in Australia and Asia last year, there was never ever a discussion to replace the rigs with some dreamed up push into the market without proper approval. 

Development, do you know that LP has not contributed in any form to any recent development, (decades) it was left to PSA, no contribution on sail, no contribution on top section, nothing on concept work, new hull manufacturing procedures, a big fuck all…..all left to a company that turns over 10% of what LP does. You should be asking yourself where does all LP’s profit go if PSA can sustain its self on 200 boats a year and LP sells 2500 boats a year.

To answer the conspiracy theories, PSA is pretty happy, we build away and try our best to look after our customers, we build 200 boats a year, half our factory now is run by great young ladies that are loving the trade of boat building, sure we can do more, sure we see logical markets we could serve better in replace of not being served all, but we have never wanted to service Europe our wish is to have new builders globally that we can actually work with on sustaining and building Laser to what it should be. To quote Kim Anderson from WS we should be selling 10000 boats collectively globally. Farzad has had decades to sort his global supply out and either does not want or is not capable.

one more, PSA has not made 1000’s of illegal boats, all the data is available from the technical reports that the ILCA has done over the years. So, if you recall the hulls used to get hairline cracks around the centre case and in the forward bow sections, what caused this after years of the boats being fine? increased towing by the increased amount of coaches towing. So, World council meeting Germany at Radial Worlds, this issue came up, PSA was approved to come up with a solution. Under the Spirit of the Rule in the LCM, all builders are encouraged to continually improve the equipment. LP, cut one of our boats up that had test patches in it and used it as a catalyst to have the ILCA remove PSA as a builder, they wanted ( they have tried many times to get rid of us)us gone and thought this would make it happen. The reason for this, it was in the middle of the all in litigation period that LP started against PSA, the Class Heini was all in too on getting rid of PSA and Kirby. Within an hour of being presented a default notice by the Class for building illegal boats at an ILCA board meeting, the issue was solved by the three builders and Bill Crane deciding the solution to a new improved laminate schedule, your ICE BLUE Boats. The result, boats sail the same, no cracking last longer and look better coming out of the mould. Again, a lot of lies from Farzad/LP with PR releases, with the full story not being told, with the sole purpose to discredit the ILCA and PSA. This is all public knowledge and old news on the forums….

So Lutz, please bugger off.

All the best.

 

Wavedancer II

Anarchist
707
173
Not a word of French there in the above Caldecoat (Facebook) post...

Too bad really; all we want to do is sail (Lasers, preferably).

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
OMG.

All bets off.

 But not like this.
No shit.  Its what I have been hinting for a few weeks.  You dot "i"s and cross "t"s while I do big picture and could not spell kite if you spotted me the i and t.  Read between the lines and follow the release and language and this has been obvious from a big picture negotiations standpoint for weeks.

There will be no winners and their last chance is to save themselves is gone.  Pass or fail the vote; it don't matter.  Good folks are going to get hurt and the class is going to suffer.  They all - ALL of them, from BK to PSA, to LPE to ILCA to EurILCA to WS they ALL failed the sailors, their members and their customers.  A pox on ALL their houses.  For gosh sake @Gouvernaildid more and better than any of them. A Texas redneck with an Easter Bunny put you all to shame. Gouv for president.

And I say it again. There is no way out anymore.  IDIOTS in BKI, PSA, LPE, ILCA, EurILCA, and WS you should all be ashamed.  All of you just had to go and press the red nuclear button.  You reap what you sew.  If I was still racing I would go Aero.  If I was voting I would vote Gouvernail.

What a freaking embarrassing sh*t show all of them are.

 

Dex Sawash

Demi Anarchrist
2,444
680
NC USA
bfb83129338cffeec6e5587b14714acc.gif


 
Lutz Hirsch
So what you are saying is you do not want to allow the ILCA to gain a little more control over the sport that it’s members participate in by telling members to vote no, you would prefer the rest of the World to adhere to the German and Italians and there chosen dictator dictating what we should do and support, you prefer we all listen to your lies and slander of a well run organisation and group. I guess this does sound very German and Italian and I guess that's why we will disagree and we can see what comes of the vote that is being presented in a democratic manner.

I understand you are the fellow in the Masters meeting in Roses that acted more like a Union line breaker paid to disrupt what was supposed to be an informative Q and A meeting and I could be wrong but you are Alex’ partner from the ILCA World Council and Farzad's new conduit to our meetings. I am not sold you have the best interests of the sport at heart sorry.

ILCA, Tracy and Fazad signed an agreement yesterday so the ILCA could keep managing sail races called Laser. I have not heard of anyone not wanting this to happen, we did feel it would never happen and this would never be signed, hence the ILCA branding push. This agreement is positive, I cannot see how this is not positive.
You are digging with the Weather Helm, the ILCA registered its ILCA trademark and with a company, who cares, no one, normal practise we all knew about it and your beloved Farzad just signed the doc mentioned above agreeing the class retains its name ILCA and ownership.

C Rig’s, for 6 years the technical committee of the ILCA with the ILCA boards approval has looked into possible developments, reports have been made annually to the ILCA board. What is wrong with trying to answer questions about long terms development questions for the class, this is exactly what has happened. Your European Chair and then LP Board Member Bill Crane have all the reports over these years and have agreed with developments. Your Italian and German dealer are the reasons there is hysteria about this in Europe and you are selling it as delivered by the Anti Christ, ILCA made the mistake of allowing the Italian and German Dealer into our Board meeting last year, a show of good will as communication between ILCA and Farzad had broken down and these two class supportive dealers where appointed as European mediators. As there has been for the past 6 years we talked about developments, the C Rigs being one, our trust was broken by the Italian and German Dealer who reported publicly that the ILCA was launching the C rigs, more so to encourage politicly unrest against between Eurilca members and ILCA. ILCA as in the minutes of the meeting agreed for Class testing in Australia and Asia last year, there was never ever a discussion to replace the rigs with some dreamed up push into the market without proper approval. 

Development, do you know that LP has not contributed in any form to any recent development, (decades) it was left to PSA, no contribution on sail, no contribution on top section, nothing on concept work, new hull manufacturing procedures, a big fuck all…..all left to a company that turns over 10% of what LP does. You should be asking yourself where does all LP’s profit go if PSA can sustain its self on 200 boats a year and LP sells 2500 boats a year.

To answer the conspiracy theories, PSA is pretty happy, we build away and try our best to look after our customers, we build 200 boats a year, half our factory now is run by great young ladies that are loving the trade of boat building, sure we can do more, sure we see logical markets we could serve better in replace of not being served all, but we have never wanted to service Europe our wish is to have new builders globally that we can actually work with on sustaining and building Laser to what it should be. To quote Kim Anderson from WS we should be selling 10000 boats collectively globally. Farzad has had decades to sort his global supply out and either does not want or is not capable.

one more, PSA has not made 1000’s of illegal boats, all the data is available from the technical reports that the ILCA has done over the years. So, if you recall the hulls used to get hairline cracks around the centre case and in the forward bow sections, what caused this after years of the boats being fine? increased towing by the increased amount of coaches towing. So, World council meeting Germany at Radial Worlds, this issue came up, PSA was approved to come up with a solution. Under the Spirit of the Rule in the LCM, all builders are encouraged to continually improve the equipment. LP, cut one of our boats up that had test patches in it and used it as a catalyst to have the ILCA remove PSA as a builder, they wanted ( they have tried many times to get rid of us)us gone and thought this would make it happen. The reason for this, it was in the middle of the all in litigation period that LP started against PSA, the Class Heini was all in too on getting rid of PSA and Kirby. Within an hour of being presented a default notice by the Class for building illegal boats at an ILCA board meeting, the issue was solved by the three builders and Bill Crane deciding the solution to a new improved laminate schedule, your ICE BLUE Boats. The result, boats sail the same, no cracking last longer and look better coming out of the mould. Again, a lot of lies from Farzad/LP with PR releases, with the full story not being told, with the sole purpose to discredit the ILCA and PSA. This is all public knowledge and old news on the forums….

So Lutz, please bugger off.
Wow, just wow.  Both sides letting out the repressed anger now.  Lets drag up the German and Italian dictatorship themes for good measure.

A slight memory slip as well .....LP was the defendant.

If the written word ever had foam coming out of the mouth, this was it.

This does not bode well, unless someone with superb reconciliation and consensus building skills steps in very soon. When rage takes over, facts and best outcomes become irrelevant.

 

jgh66

Anarchist
The goal is to put Lasers under butts. 

After getting off the phone yesterday I had a bundle of “Oh Boy!! We could maybe get everybody to understand the single  most  selfish thing to do is team up .”

It really is.

Fill in the blanks with any names you  choose .

If ______________________ would call

______________________ and offer to help ___________________ put more sailors on Lasers, ____________________ would be happier. 

Seriously, there are no names you can put in those blanks that make the sentence false. 

The biggest impediment to resolving all our differences is WE DON’T HAVE ANY!!!

Quit making up reasons to fight and start putting more butts on Lasers. 

And to World Sailing?? Sprinkling your anti SMOD nonsense in our happy little game of Laser isn’t going to work. 

We are the ONLY international sailing game. You can’t have Olympic Sailing contests without the contest to determine the best singlehanded sailors in the world. 

You can’t  have that contest without the only boat sailed all over the world. 

Go piss in somebody else’s rice bowl. 

Start doing your job and try to promote sailing instead of trying to mess up the world’s most  most successful sailing game. 

If you can’t figure out a way to include Lasers in your 2024 Olympic presentation By August 1, maybe you ought to step aside and let somebody competent serve as the organizing authority. 

Builders: go build boats and make sure anybody who tries to buy one gets one RIGHT AWAY!!!! 

ILCA: go organize events and invite EVERYBODY 

sailors: buy toys, come play, and tell everybody how much fun you are having 

.....

if you want to fight with somebody join one of those bdsm clubs or something but please get the hell out of our way. 
Gouv, 

I fully agree on most of your points. This sailing game only works if all parties work closely together. 

I also agree that SMOD concept made the Laser class that big as it is today. A big manufacturer that has a commercial interests to support the class and the game is vital to build up  such a big class. This works great until a SMOD manufaturer fails to deliver boats, parts or quality. Especially you americans were complaining that there is something wrong with the manufacturer in your area. This I think is the reason why WS decided that these problems are unacceptable for olympic classes, and tries to solve that problem by going from SMOD to MMOD, to get especially your problems solved. 

Therefore I can't understand your argumentation pro SMOD, and your support fir LPE. 

I made a really crazy proposal, that could in fact solve most of the problems we currently see. Though I don't believe that this is going to happen. What happens is that all parties are fighting, and destroying the Laser game. But not only the laser game. I personally don't think that the Laser is the best boat for the olympics. But if it is going to be replaced, we will propably  lose a lot of countries in the olympics, which could result in sailing becoming an non olympic sport. As financial support from gouvernments is related to olympic status of any sport, the whole sailing world will lose a lot of money, that currently goes into youth sailing., which would further lead to declining numbers of competitors, boats build and people in the sport. 

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
But if it is going to be replaced, we will propably  lose a lot of countries in the olympics, which could result in sailing becoming an non olympic sport. As financial support from gouvernments is related to olympic status of any sport, the whole sailing world will lose a lot of money, that currently goes into youth sailing., which would further lead to declining numbers of competitors, boats build and people in the sport. 
And the sky is going to fall. And we will all go and burn in hell. Why don’t you pull a Canntt and rename yourself “Chicken Little?” My gosh you are as transparent as a window. 

I think you maybe forgot to mention that if sailing was not an Olympic sport the earth will implode and the universe collapse. 

 
And the sky is going to fall. And we will all go and burn in hell. Why don’t you pull a Canntt and rename yourself “Chicken Little?” My gosh you are as transparent as a window. 

I think you maybe forgot to mention that if sailing was not an Olympic sport the earth will implode and the universe collapse. 
Whoa Wess.

We are all taken back by this turn of events. No need to start throwing stones at each other.  Gouv has a point. Perhaps we could set an example to the warring builders by courteously listening to each others views . 

It is incredible that the worlds most successful sailing dinghy of all time, one that has introduced hundreds of thousands, even millions to our wonderful sport, has reached this situation.  A combination of bitter infighting between builders and less than  adept management from governing bodies has left all the sailors (Wess, jgh, IPL, Bruce Gouv........) saddened with a sour taste in our mouths and a deep sense that this could have been done better.....a sense of missed opportunity .

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
My patience is a bit thin at the moment for various reasons not related to Laser.  There are lots of folks in this thread that if you follow from the first thread till now and through this all, you can watch them change and evolve their views as new facts come to light.  You have seen me do that (change opinion on various parties in this mess), I have seen you do it, as well as many others.  Seen Gouv do it and that is one entrenched dude. 

But then we have shrills.  Wolves in sheep's clothing. You can spot them because no matter what they always return to the exact same message. They may duck and dance but end of the day it always comes back to the same thing.  Just track the posts of this latest.  At the end its always the exact same message directly stated or implied.  Its a shill.  Purposeful or too stupid to know better; I don't know and I don't care.  Its people shrilling at any and all levels that got the class into this mess and I am kinda sick of it.

 

jgh66

Anarchist
Wess, 

I don't understand what you mean. I would agree that the olympics are not important for adult racing in Laser. The class was big even before it became olympic. Quite the opposite.Becoming olympic might not even good for the class, as all the coaches, full time sailers and the money that is spend results in a situation where it's impossible to compete on international level if you still have to work, and can't be on the water 5 days a week, and buy two hulls and 10 sails per season. I know a lot of classes that don't want to become olympic for that reason. That's why I personally would select the MPS for the Olympics, as it was designed to be an olympic boat. But this would surely result in the same problems as said before. I just think that what happens currently will destroy a large portion of Laser racing as well as general dinghy racing on a global scale. It's just sad. But we propably won't change that, no matter what we post here. 

 
Damnit!!!! Whatever happened  to “Those  of us running the election feel compelled to avoid any appearance  of partisanship”?Certainly I believe the folks in charge would not count the votes wrong. Others may see this as blatant election tampering.
Maybe the call and its justification should not have been simultaneous, but it's not the first time an administration calls for a vote on a suggestion they publicly support (or stand against).

If we are really concerned about the votes being counted by an independent oversight group, that can be arranged. We are not unaccustomed to that in democracies. Neither Tracy nor Eric are unaccustomed to that within ILCA, either:

(If you remember,) in the eventful 2003 ILCA NA elections which resulted in the dismissal of the (allegedly undemocratic, fascist, unethical, non-transparent, unprofessional, etc.) NA President Ryan Eric Minth, the replacement of NA Secretary Mark Kastel (with Eric Faust) and the re-election of the VP Dr. Tracy Usher,  we had asked ILCA members Dick Tillman and John Christensen to be the observers and to compile the votes from different Districts. 

Ref: http://web.archive.org/web/20040531200341/http://cerebus.winsite.com/archives/2001/msg06410.html

 
We the sailors are disappointed.

We are disappointed in both of our builders for their longstanding 10+ year dispute, their inability to work together for a common cause, putting commercial interests ahead of supportive customers and volunteers and failing to settle their law suit.

We are disappointed in both of our builders for their bitter comments towards each other at a crucial time in the class history when they should be looking for ways to reconcile 

We are disappointed in our sport's governing body for introducing a policy that effectively bans SMOD classes from participating in the Olympics . We are especially disappointed that World sailing should select the Laser class as the first class to experiment with this policy. You have thrown the most widely raced dinghy class in the world into disarray.  It was either bad timing, incompetent coincidence or something worse. Your job is to nurture classes not disrupt them.

We are disappointed in the leadership of ILCA. Good intentions do not mitigate poor decisions.  We are disappointed that you would preface the extremely sensitive and difficult transition to an OMOD, FRAND compliant class by dismissing LP before the transition, raising tensions, creating distrust and confusing the issues.  We are disappointed in your messaging and communication that has led so many Laser sailors to question your motives. We are disappointed in your failure to build consensus and your failure to build an inclusive negotiation team.

We are disappointed in the leadership of EULCA. Good intentions do not mitigate personal attacks. We are disappointed that you would publicly call for the resignation of your colleagues rather than reach across the aisle, identify and reconcile your differences and make constructive suggestions to reach your goals. We are disappointed by the public ad hominem attacks by class leaders and their partners who should instead be setting an example of the good fellowship and sportsmanship that has always been such an important part of our sport. At our yacht clubs and regattas you will find that we the sailors enjoy camaraderie as much as the sailing,. You misrepresent our sport.      

We are disappointed in LP for trying to impose a trademark agreement on the class association that would force the vibrant community of sailors and volunteers to cede control of their own class association to your commercial control. We are disappointed that that you have failed to provide a reliable supply chain for North American sailors and caused so much angst to so many sailors in that continent.  We are disappointed in your partisan and destructive PR.  

We are disappointed in PSA and its owners for breaching the World Sailing contract, acquiring BKI and then using ownership of BKI to try and make commercial gains. Whether it was unfortunate or deliberate, the resulting contractual disputes have hurt Laser sailing and damaged the efforts of the humble volunteers who are trying to host regattas with friendly Easter bunnies. We are disappointed in your efforts to reconcile with the other builder. We wish you would spend your legal fees somewhere else. We are disappointed in your inflammatory and immature public comments as we approach the August 1st deadline. 

WE THE SAILORS DONT WANT A WAR!

With apologies to Wess and Tiller (who have previously been in charge of our musical entertainment)....ILCA, WS, LP and PSA should listen to Bobby Darin




 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
23 minutes ago, IPLore said:

We the sailors are disappointed.

We are disappointed in both of our builders for their longstanding 10+ year dispute, their inability to work together for a common cause, putting commercial interests ahead of supportive customers and volunteers and failing to settle their law suit.

We are disappointed in both of our builders for their bitter comments towards each other at a crucial time in the class history when they should be looking for ways to reconcile 

We are disappointed in our sport's governing body for introducing a policy that effectively bans SMOD classes from participating in the Olympics . We are especially disappointed that World sailing should select the Laser class as the first class to experiment with this policy. You have thrown the most widely raced dinghy class in the world into disarray.  It was either bad timing, incompetent coincidence or something worse. Your job is to nurture classes not disrupt them.

We are disappointed in the leadership of ILCA. Good intentions do not mitigate poor decisions.  We are disappointed that you would preface the extremely sensitive and difficult transition to an OMOD, FRAND compliant class by dismissing LP before the transition, raising tensions, creating distrust and confusing the issues.  We are disappointed in your messaging and communication that has led so many Laser sailors to question your motives. We are disappointed in your failure to build consensus and your failure to build an inclusive negotiation team.

We are disappointed in the leadership of EULCA. Good intentions do not mitigate personal attacks. We are disappointed that you would publicly call for the resignation of your colleagues rather than reach across the aisle, identify and reconcile your differences and make constructive suggestions to reach your goals. We are disappointed by the public ad hominem attacks by class leaders and their partners who should instead be setting an example of the good fellowship and sportsmanship that has always been such an important part of our sport. At our yacht clubs and regattas you will find that we the sailors enjoy camaraderie as much as the sailing,. You misrepresent our sport.      

We are disappointed in LP for trying to impose a trademark agreement on the class association that would force the vibrant community of sailors and volunteers to cede control of their own class association to your commercial control. We are disappointed that that you have failed to provide a reliable supply chain for North American sailors and caused so much angst to so many sailors in that continent.  We are disappointed in your partisan and destructive PR.  

We are disappointed in PSA and its owners for breaching the World Sailing contract, acquiring BKI and then using ownership of BKI to try and make commercial gains. Whether it was unfortunate or deliberate, the resulting contractual disputes have hurt Laser sailing and damaged the efforts of the humble volunteers who are trying to host regattas with friendly Easter bunnies. We are disappointed in your efforts to reconcile with the other builder. We wish you would spend your legal fees somewhere else. We are disappointed in your inflammatory and immature public comments as we approach the August 1st deadline. 

WE THE SAILORS DONT WANT A WAR!

With apologies to Wess and Tiller (who have previously been in charge of our musical entertainment)....ILCA, WS, LP and PSA should listen to Bobby Darin


You are more polite and well spoken than a simple hick like me.  And I would have added a few things.  But yea...THIS  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  plus 100!

 
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