Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
Comparing the Solo with the Laser / ILCA is a great example of not comparing apples with apples.
Generally, larger sails have a lower cost per sq. M. than smaller sails.
ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder
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Generally, larger sails have a lower cost per sq. M. than smaller sails.
JulianB
Super Anarchist
Guys, I knew the word seriously would offend, and I tried very hard to find another word! Possibly the pedantic, some may say stupidity or grossly-over-zealous nature of the manner in which the people behind the Olympic teams take there work is more apt. I sail every week out of the same club that hosts our Olympic team, and the extent to which the 20 odd support team go over every minutia detail of the boats, what is being done, you may think that the 5o5 dose that, and maybe in a short burst given the people involved, possibly, but some of these guys have been doing this every day of the week since the 1980's. They are paid full time just to do this. 20 people, 20+ years, 20+ countries (on 5 continents) I'm betting the extent to which Olympic classes are scrutinised, maybe call it optimised, exceeds any other form of the sport and that certainly includes the AC.
JJ Glaser, I think I met in the 90. Canada and US adopted the Antipodeans from the very early days of ISAF (2000's) and Pease Glaser was part of that, from memory she was a exception Tornado sailors, but unless I went and hassled Quriky, pulling a Glaser out of a bag has 2 major issues for me, I have never sailed a 5o5, no idea what I am looking for and I have no idea where to find Quriky, so even assuming he (or Nicho) has a Glaser, I assumed, (and you and now implying that I did so incorrectly) that Glaser was like every other sailmaker where even the simplest sail bag is an issue.
But regardless you can still do the sum, take off the cost of the battens, what ever they may be, but they are unlikely to be 6 full length battens, and the sum will still show the 5o5 main is still more /m² than a 49er or a Laser, so go your hardest.
But it dose sound like JJ is being exceptionally good to his 5o5 brethren and I applaud him for that.
And the same thing applies to comparing a Laser to a Solo.
Nothing in what you are saying would stop, if you un-burdened the single source sail-making that is currently part of the MMOD classes from these same people (the Olympic support teams) from completely re-writing the sail development programs and the sort of price escalation that is seen in non MMOD classes involved in the games.
2 final point, and they center around simplicity. Presently you can only get one Laser Main, one 49er main, etc and by one, you don't have a Light air, and Medium air, and heavier air, a choppy water main that some of the other classes have. That's just mains! Spinnaker ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and that's just what I know. We know from talking to, and I will refrain from mentioning the class, but it is Olympic, the cost of one of these specialist mains, and how long they have been told it will last competitively, provided they did not take it out of it's "envelop". And these guys are using them in local races.
Just for a Milli-second think what would happen if say a Laser went open, (which is trying to bring this all back on thread), your wardrobe would end up being at least 5 mainsails, and if you took your super duper light air main out and a front came through, it's toast. Just think of the logistics of managing all those sails, think of the cost and the environmental damage.
To even remotely think your Intensity main will cut it, it's just a farce!
The other one is far more up-beat, happen to run into some moth sailors, we started talking about 3Di and the general impression is they last a lot longer. What I did find really amusing is they don't change mainsails for given conditions, they change masts. Now there is a twist, and according to them, mast are easier to get, cheaper and last for ever (carbon, small diameter).
We need to KISS more now than ever before,
jB
JJ Glaser, I think I met in the 90. Canada and US adopted the Antipodeans from the very early days of ISAF (2000's) and Pease Glaser was part of that, from memory she was a exception Tornado sailors, but unless I went and hassled Quriky, pulling a Glaser out of a bag has 2 major issues for me, I have never sailed a 5o5, no idea what I am looking for and I have no idea where to find Quriky, so even assuming he (or Nicho) has a Glaser, I assumed, (and you and now implying that I did so incorrectly) that Glaser was like every other sailmaker where even the simplest sail bag is an issue.
But regardless you can still do the sum, take off the cost of the battens, what ever they may be, but they are unlikely to be 6 full length battens, and the sum will still show the 5o5 main is still more /m² than a 49er or a Laser, so go your hardest.
But it dose sound like JJ is being exceptionally good to his 5o5 brethren and I applaud him for that.
And the same thing applies to comparing a Laser to a Solo.
Nothing in what you are saying would stop, if you un-burdened the single source sail-making that is currently part of the MMOD classes from these same people (the Olympic support teams) from completely re-writing the sail development programs and the sort of price escalation that is seen in non MMOD classes involved in the games.
2 final point, and they center around simplicity. Presently you can only get one Laser Main, one 49er main, etc and by one, you don't have a Light air, and Medium air, and heavier air, a choppy water main that some of the other classes have. That's just mains! Spinnaker ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and that's just what I know. We know from talking to, and I will refrain from mentioning the class, but it is Olympic, the cost of one of these specialist mains, and how long they have been told it will last competitively, provided they did not take it out of it's "envelop". And these guys are using them in local races.
Just for a Milli-second think what would happen if say a Laser went open, (which is trying to bring this all back on thread), your wardrobe would end up being at least 5 mainsails, and if you took your super duper light air main out and a front came through, it's toast. Just think of the logistics of managing all those sails, think of the cost and the environmental damage.
To even remotely think your Intensity main will cut it, it's just a farce!
The other one is far more up-beat, happen to run into some moth sailors, we started talking about 3Di and the general impression is they last a lot longer. What I did find really amusing is they don't change mainsails for given conditions, they change masts. Now there is a twist, and according to them, mast are easier to get, cheaper and last for ever (carbon, small diameter).
We need to KISS more now than ever before,
jB
fastyacht
Super Anarchist
- 12,928
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What Julian just described for open sail development in the Laser (everyone would have a quiver of 5 sails) sounds exaclty like windsurfing ca. 1990. Where is windsurfing now? Where would laser sailing be? (Where is it?)
There is going to be endless "lost in translation" because The Australian sailing scene that JB is in is totally completely perhaps utterly different from that of the U.S. And NZ? or England? Again, totally different. I can only speak with any decent sense of understanding about U.S. and more specifically East Coast/Inland. We've seen the bottom drop out of sailboat and especially dinghy racing here in my lifetime. This has not happened to the same extent in England (from conversations, though the same trend).
Laser in the U.S. is often the "last man standing." It doesn't mean the class is healthy, or vibrant, or any of that. Just that there are more of them, they are also loaded with good memories (mine included). For me, I sail them club level only now and only occasionally and they are too freking small for 17 stone sailors...
We may never get to the "bottom" of the problem. JB's point about Olympics is well taken. But if you've never sailed a 505, you may be underestimating the dedication knowledge and passion in the class. "Last Man Standing" may well apply to 505 too--last great world class dinghy left in vibrant world competition. The level of commitment and skill at the top is huge. "Famous" people come onboard and get spanked regularly. The top sailors are never guaranteed to win anything because there are many great sailors in that first 20 boats.
As for masts: Yep. Indeed the economics of masts has gone very low cost. I look back at a rig I designed in the late 80s with a carbon mast and realize that it was ahead of its time. Wishbone boom, carbon, etc. Nobody wanted it. Hahahahahahaha.
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JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
A more useful comparison on sail prices might be Laser and Finn, both being Olympic and one closed and one open supply. I found a price for a Finn Mainsail at 1.639,33 EUR on a DE site. On another DE site I found ILCA 6(Hyde) as €565.00 and ILCA 7 (HYDE)€610.00.
JulianB
Super Anarchist
A couple of posts back I spoke of just being told about the extents that one nation took, towards analyzing an aspect of an Olympic class, it happened to be a 49er.
It was not Australia.
I assure you that Australia and New Zealand are not the cauldron of creative thinking when it comes to methods to try and identify differences in some aspects of 9ers. They certainly are not in some aspects of other Olympic classes. I have been involved in some of this Non-Antipodean (non 9er) testing regime.
I think you may be blown away by whom is doing what and what they are doing, and I have to say that some of the stuff is very clever and I can see huge potential in what is being done, and what gains can be made.
Some of it un-mitigating crap, from my POV, but what do I know!
But if I disclose it, then they will never speak to me again, and nor should they, so don't ask.
Re the US, some interesting stuff some years back, but nothing for a while so go kick some butts.
Yep, 5o5's attract a certain level of loyalty, as do Laser as do 18teen, as do I14, and I think I14 and 5O5 are both tipping point boats so I have great respect for both of them, along with Moths.
Plus I do know Nicho, very well, my brother won something in 5o's in HK in the 70's, Dave Porter and I did a huge amount of testing and Holger Jess is one of our biggest 9er dealers in Europe, plus I have seen countless 5o5s in various stages of construction in Ovington's and in the past Rondars.
But nothing prepares you for the red hot poker that is the Olympics, and that's, Designers, Builder and Sailors alike!
Nothing, jB
It was not Australia.
I assure you that Australia and New Zealand are not the cauldron of creative thinking when it comes to methods to try and identify differences in some aspects of 9ers. They certainly are not in some aspects of other Olympic classes. I have been involved in some of this Non-Antipodean (non 9er) testing regime.
I think you may be blown away by whom is doing what and what they are doing, and I have to say that some of the stuff is very clever and I can see huge potential in what is being done, and what gains can be made.
Some of it un-mitigating crap, from my POV, but what do I know!
But if I disclose it, then they will never speak to me again, and nor should they, so don't ask.
Re the US, some interesting stuff some years back, but nothing for a while so go kick some butts.
Yep, 5o5's attract a certain level of loyalty, as do Laser as do 18teen, as do I14, and I think I14 and 5O5 are both tipping point boats so I have great respect for both of them, along with Moths.
Plus I do know Nicho, very well, my brother won something in 5o's in HK in the 70's, Dave Porter and I did a huge amount of testing and Holger Jess is one of our biggest 9er dealers in Europe, plus I have seen countless 5o5s in various stages of construction in Ovington's and in the past Rondars.
But nothing prepares you for the red hot poker that is the Olympics, and that's, Designers, Builder and Sailors alike!
Nothing, jB
tillerman
Super Anarchist
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
While based in Australia it is reductionist to think of Julian as embedded in Australian sailing, his views are assuredly less myopic than those of the great unwashed.
I'm sure that many classes would argue that they too offer vibrant competition at their world champs. (505s never got established in NZ, so I'm one of many who have never sailed one).
A quick look at international classes show a number in poor shape, but also show a number which are not. In recent years we've seen the emergence of the Musto skiff, the 49er and others. Plus the OK dinghy seems to be going through a renaissance, and the Optimist shows no sign of waning. The International Moth is yet another... ...and the 470 and 420 are still strong.
Also there is the ILCA in the three popular forms.
Sailing as a sport is resilient, and shows no sign of withering and dying.
The reasons that make the 505 strong are repeated across a number of classes, and display why the sport of sailing is resilient.
EYESAILOR
Super Anarchist
- 3,802
- 2,316
I do aree with this.
It is hard though because even in relatively straightforward classes, the sail makers discover a tweak here and there.
Bill5
Right now
Tokyo will be the boat’s 7th Olympics. That is a lot of red hot poker-ing! And she lives on!
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
Sure you aren't implying that a new sail costs US$1000, sure you must have spent some money elsewhere, but others might read it that a new sail costs US$1000.
A new ILCA sail is US$550 (ILCA 4), US$575 (ILCA 6) and US$650 (ILCA 7).
From West Coast Sailing:
Hey @WestCoast - I am pretty sure these prices have come down slightly? (Wasn't the Radial $600 last year?) Care to comment?
Board skiff
Super Anarchist
- 1,606
- 672
Except the Finn sail is bigger, made from the best cloth money can buy, cut to suit a mast with bespoke bend characteristics and has greater tolerance in what is allowable than the ILCA would presumably allow.
Compare the Olympic Finn to the non Olympic Solo - they use the same cloth if nothing else. The Finn works out at 20% more per square metre, not a bad premium for individualised luff curves, especially as I guess most Olympians don’t pay VAT.
I tend to just compare the RS Aero 7 sail and ILCA7 sails, both similar cuts from North, you would think there would be an economy of scale influence, but doesn't seem to be.
Seeing numbers on how many ILCA sails are sold per year compared to other classes would be enlightening
Seeing numbers on how many ILCA sails are sold per year compared to other classes would be enlightening
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Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
North American's do seem to get a pretty good deal.
In the UK the Aero sail is significantly cheaper, even before you add in the additional cost of ILCA battens for the MKII
RS Aero 7m Sail - RS Sailing (rssailingstore.com) - £468.61
ILCA 7 Sail – MK2 – ILCA Spare Parts and accessories (ovingtonboats.com) - £549.00
The Aero7 sail is similarly cheaper in Australia compared to the ILCA7:
02-RS Aero 7m Sail AER-SA-101 - self fit numbers included (sailingraceboats.com.au) - A$995.00
ILCA 7 Mk II sail - North Sails - PSA Sailing Online Shop - A$1,040.00
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
Sails here in NZ are Oz prices, plus freight. $1,299 NZD. (is US$931).
Yup. Small differences in the UK and Oz between the RS Aero and the ILCA. Big differences in the US.
Before Covid, I'd simply get someone from the US to bring one back... but now, you know, our borders are mostly closed - just open a little to our neighbors (Oz and the Cook Islands).
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RobbieB
Super Anarchist
The ACC's were fun and brutal....Back to the big fleet drawing board for me, but it was great sharing the course with Hurley, Hollowell and others.. Sailing was tight and very clean. I'd say boats 1 through 27 finished the course within 3-5 minutes of each other. The class has some very fast kiddo's out there!
tillerman
Super Anarchist
Comparing prices of sails for class X vs Class Z in Wagga Wagga vs Chattanooga is all very fine but it doesn't compare to actually sailing.
Raced yesterday at my home club on Lake Massapoag for the first time since before the Trump virus fiasco. Remembered again why I love the RS Aero so much but man do I need some more practice to even get back to my old form. I tried being friendly to a Laser sailor on one of the downwinds by asking him a question about the course but the distraction made him death roll. I am a bad person.
Raced yesterday at my home club on Lake Massapoag for the first time since before the Trump virus fiasco. Remembered again why I love the RS Aero so much but man do I need some more practice to even get back to my old form. I tried being friendly to a Laser sailor on one of the downwinds by asking him a question about the course but the distraction made him death roll. I am a bad person.
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Bill5
Right now
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
There seems to be a high level of people willing and able to misinterpret what others say, not just generally on SA, but specifically in this thread.
