ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

pqbon

Anarchist
552
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Cambridge UK
Well they could collect membership fees from sailors that want to join the class and sail in their events.
Almost every onedesign I know of that isn't an "open" onedesign - the class owner gets a cut of the hull and sails. The cost of plaque and administration... even Oppies have a class plaque that is administrated and measured etc and get a cut for the blessed hull.

ILCA being the biggest onedesign that will ever exist it is more well known since many onedesigns don't become independent of the designer/initial builder.
 

pqbon

Anarchist
552
276
Cambridge UK
Well they could collect membership fees from sailors that want to join the class and sail in their events.
Almost every onedesign I know of that isn't an "open" onedesign - the class owner gets a cut of the hull and sails. The cost of plaque and administration... even Oppies have a class plaque that is administrated and measured etc and get a cut for the blessed hull.

ILCA being the biggest onedesign that will ever exist it is more well known since many onedesigns don't become independent of the designer/initial builder but it is still baked in.
 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
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Charleston, SC
To clear up some of your disinformation ILCA gets a cut off the top in the form of direct fees on every new boat sold as well as sails and gear regardless of if that boat ever sails in an ILCA event. In addition to those direct (and hidden to new boat buyers) fees ILCA gets fees from builders just to get qualified to build boats I understand. Those build qualifying costs would also get passed onto new boat buyers by builders as indirect fees.
I never said they didn't.
 

pqbon

Anarchist
552
276
Cambridge UK
I never said they didn't.
And I don't understand why this would be considered controversial.
This is the way every one design works...
If you buy a DZero sail Devoti get's a cut...
RS gets a cut of all the sails for their classes.
The 2000 (formerly Laser2000) gets a cut of all class legal sails.
When you buy an Oppi or Finn with a plaque -- the money goes to the class.
 

Xeon

Super Anarchist
1,251
729
England
And I don't understand why this would be considered controversial.
This is the way every one design works...
If you buy a DZero sail Devoti get's a cut...
RS gets a cut of all the sails for their classes.
The 2000 (formerly Laser2000) gets a cut of all class legal sails.
When you buy an Oppi or Finn with a plaque -- the money goes to the class.
Totally agree.
I recently bought a new sail for my D-zero and know a small free went to Devoti . BUT that tiny fee is a minuscule part of the total cost of £1160 . It’s not going to effect if a person buys a sail or not.
As a side issue, for LASER sailors that complain about the cost of class legal sails, take a look at that price again £1160 !.
That’s the price a one design sail CAN cost 😀
 

pqbon

Anarchist
552
276
Cambridge UK
This sounds a lot like: Not everything the class association does benefits me directly so I don't want to pay...

If you don't want to pay buy one of the many many many boats that don't have active classes anymore because they have died off. There are 1,000s of them.
Meerly by racing one design you are benefiting from the strong class association.
 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,293
1,837
Charleston, SC
Hit just hit me that without Wess this thread would have died long ago, (long past the time he lost the bet). He's the ONLY person that posts adversarial viewpoints on ILCA then all the rest of us waste our time responding thereby keeping the thread going. I'm going "Shark Tank" on this one now. It was interesting for a while but "I'm out".
 

torrid

Super Anarchist
1,085
435
Oh, you'll be back.

MV5BN2JlNDhlNzYtNmJhZS00YmVkLWFlYTUtMWZiZmE1OWVjOTM3XkEyXkFqcGdeQVRoaXJkUGFydHlJbmdlc3Rpb25Xb3JrZmxvdw@@._V1_QL75_UX500_CR0,0,500,281_.jpg
 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
756
Sydney ex London
......... the price ILCA takes on a new boat sale even if you ain’t sailing in ILCA events.

Well they could collect membership fees from sailors that want to join the class and sail in their events.

After all this time you still don't get it. You seem to see the only benefit of the class association are events run by the association. If that was so, you would be right. However, those who don't sail in association events still gain a huge benefit from the work the association does, which adds value to their "investment" in their boat. The amount of work that an association such as ILCA has to do that benefits all (working with commercial interests) that never really gets reported because it is just "part of life" is huge. I know having been on the world committee for 2 one design classes, 1 of which is an Olympic class. I also know without that unseen work, classes die, even Olympic ones.
 

Bill5

Right now
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Western Canada
After all this time you still don't get it. You seem to see the only benefit of the class association are events run by the association. If that was so, you would be right. However, those who don't sail in association events still gain a huge benefit from the work the association does, which adds value to their "investment" in their boat. The amount of work that an association such as ILCA has to do that benefits all (working with commercial interests) that never really gets reported because it is just "part of life" is huge. I know having been on the world committee for 2 one design classes, 1 of which is an Olympic class. I also know without that unseen work, classes die, even Olympic ones.
He just likes to troll. And we keep falling for it. Myself included.
 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Hey it’s not my fault I can go to all these fun places for less than ILCA takes off the top of a new boat sale, or sail, or well most everything…

It’s also not my fault that a new Laser costs high 6 low 7K pre FRAND and now costs more than $10K an increase of more than 40% in virtually no time. Find me any other class where the boat prices increased that much on such a short period of time.


B274F883-FFF0-4C26-85DB-29BC028832B2.jpeg
 

Bill5

Right now
2,962
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Western Canada
Hey it’s not my fault I can go to all these fun places for less than ILCA takes off the top of a new boat sale, or sail, or well most everything…

It’s also not my fault that a new Laser costs high 6 low 7K pre FRAND and now costs more than $10K an increase of more than 40% in virtually no time. Find me any other class where the boat prices increased that much on such a short period of time.


View attachment 559833
See? I am falling for it. FRAND adds about $200, plus there is the “Kirby Fee“ of $50.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
64,001
6,370
De Nile
I have no axe to grind, am not on one side or the other - completely neutral but I have a few questions.

1. Who owns the Intellectual Property with regards the design and right to build the design? Is it the current builder or the class association?

2. Does the class association have any rights at all over the builder?

If Mr Clean is correct that the trademarks and therefore presumably the design belong to LPE then surely the class association should get on with what it should get on with. In other words serve its existing members who presumably have already bought a Laser.

In the meantime LPE should be left to get on with what it is supposed to get on with which is build a Laser sailboat that measures in all respects as a Laser.

If LPE do that, then what is the beef.

Does an existing Ford Motor Car owner have any rights over how the Ford Motor Company is currently building their cars? I don't think so.

It might be smart of FORD to listen to existing customers for when they want to buy a new car but they don't have to do anything.

Or am I missing something?

SS
LPE can make their Laser any way they wish. ILCA can define what boat measures into their class. The LPE built laser no longer qualifies to race in the OD class because they may have changed how the boats were built, and wouldn’t let ILCA audit the build.

Yes, LPE owns the Laser trademark, which is why ILCA is ILCA. ILCA owns the ILCA trademark. If you want to sail in an ILCA event, you need an ILCA compliant sailboat.

LPE is trying to start a SMOD class called the Laser but aren’t getting many customers.
 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
6,013
2,959
Rhode Island
LPE can make their Laser any way they wish. ILCA can define what boat measures into their class. The LPE built laser no longer qualifies to race in the OD class because they may have changed how the boats were built, and wouldn’t let ILCA audit the build.

Yes, LPE owns the Laser trademark, which is why ILCA is ILCA. ILCA owns the ILCA trademark. If you want to sail in an ILCA event, you need an ILCA compliant sailboat.

LPE is trying to start a SMOD class called the Laser but aren’t getting many customers.
Does Bruce Kirby's estate get a fee on every ILCA sold?
Does World Sailing get a fee on every ILCA sold?
Do the legacy builders (PSA and PSJ) get a fee on every ILCA sold?
What happened to the money (several million dollars as I recall) which WS originally paid Kirby for his design rights to the Kirby Sailboat (aka Laser.)
 

Bill5

Right now
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2,526
Western Canada
Does Bruce Kirby's estate get a fee on every ILCA sold?
Does World Sailing get a fee on every ILCA sold?
Do the legacy builders (PSA and PSJ) get a fee on every ILCA sold?
What happened to the money (several million dollars as I recall) which WS originally paid Kirby for his design rights to the Kirby Sailboat (aka Laser.)
I have posted this a number of times, and I know Wess never read it either. Most questions answered here:

 

Xeon

Super Anarchist
1,251
729
England
Bill5 you beat me to the punch.
I was just about to post that all these questions had been answered mainly times on all of the main Laser/ILCA threads 😀
 


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