ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
What on Earth is wrong with a manufacturer of toys offering a long time customer a job? 
Nothing in itself.

Even when that person is a member of the ILCA World Council or a EurILCA executive committee member does it make that wrong in itself.

However it does make it a conflict of interest.

The role of these officials is to represent ILCA members, not commercial interests. The exception are the commercial interests who represent themselves as ILCA World Council members.

It is the deceit that makes it wrong; the is the non declaration of the conflict of interest.

And when false allegations are made, the perceived conflict of interest can be just as damaging. Right now, Alex B and Jean Luc M are in the spotlight. If what Rastegar said about Alex B and and the other now diseased official is false, then I for one sure as heck want that exposed. That is why I am unashamedly pushing for all ILCA World Council members and EurILCA executive committee members to declare conflicts of interest.

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Why ILCA World council members?

What hasn't been talked about publicly in any great depth is the potential conflict of interest that any commercial interest advantaged by the changes will have. Declaring conflicts of interest is to the benefit of any officials involved with:

  • the creation of policy that potential benefits or disadvantages any commercial interest
  • the selection of new builders

This goes some way to address perceived conflicts, which in my view can be just as destructive.

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step one....present a plan for opening toy supply to alternative sources
Rightly or wrongly, that was set in play when in 2018 the World Policy was proposed back in 2018. It was ratified in March 2019.

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,166
1,666
Charleston, SC
Not at all.

What is common to other SA threads is the disciet and bullying, mostly by people with anonymous handles.

What is different about this thread is the real world implications of similar disciet which affecting the Laser class are being exposed.

Also, this thread is being used in the following ways:

  • Real information that is important to the Laser class is being released to the public
  • It is being read by key people involved in the EurILCA, ILCA, LP, WS, PSA and PSJ negotiations
  • Driving their interest is that some of that information released here is verifiably true.

What is unusual (but not unique) is that real lives are being impacted by what is being said here.

Many of the same tactics of 'enough of this BS, we just want to go sailing' to suppress me and other like minded people.

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I admit to having immense professional curiosity to see how countering misinformation and bullying with the truth impacts this thread, however that is a distant second to the welfare of the Laser class. I've been sailing since I was nine years old. My interest in information security and related issues is only a couple of decades old.

No Robbie, this is not your typical SA derailment at all.
I disagree.  Your posting supposedly 3rd hand, (or 2nd hand) information that may or may not be true.  It's sort of like bad news and stuff that the current US sitting President thrives off of.  "Hey idiots look over here!  Blah, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone, (who buys into it) gets all sucked up and twisted up over something that's just not relevant to the issues at hand while in the meantime real and relevant things are going down and slipping under the radar.  

Just because it's on the internet sure as hell doesn't make it "real information".  What's concerning is real lives are impacted by bad/incorrect information posted on the internet every day.

I hope and pray the ILCA class leaders and builders are NOT looking at the f'ing SA forum for ANY information.  Seriously?!? coming here for the holy grail of information?!? Talk about derailing a negotiation.

It's like CNN news when they sit around and "speculate" the news.  "what if" this and "what if" that.  Ohhh, let's get the legal experts in here to discuss the What if's!!!!  

I'm out until someone "official" has some real news that is released in the form of an actual press release from the actual powers that be who are ACTUALLY involved in this thing.

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,166
1,666
Charleston, SC
I disagree.  Your posting supposedly 3rd hand, (or 2nd hand) information that may or may not be true.  It's sort of like bad news and stuff that the current US sitting President thrives off of.  "Hey idiots look over here!  Blah, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone, (who buys into it) gets all sucked up and twisted up over something that's just not relevant to the issues at hand while in the meantime real and relevant things are going down and slipping under the radar.  

Just because it's on the internet sure as hell doesn't make it "real information".  What's concerning is real lives are impacted by bad/incorrect information posted on the internet every day.

I hope and pray the ILCA class leaders and builders are NOT looking at the f'ing SA forum for ANY information.  Seriously?!? coming here for the holy grail of information?!? Talk about derailing a negotiation.

It's like CNN news when they sit around and "speculate" the news.  "what if" this and "what if" that.  Ohhh, let's get the legal experts in here to discuss the What if's!!!!  

I'm out until someone "official" has some real news that is released in the form of an actual press release from the actual powers that be who are ACTUALLY involved in this thing.
One last thing.  You are correct in that's it not the "typical" derailment as I'm not going to scream at you to go F yourself or speak negatively about your family, your dog, insult your sailing abilities and so on.  So, I'll give you that one.

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
I disagree.  Your posting supposedly 3rd hand, (or 2nd hand) information that may or may not be true.  It's sort of like bad news and stuff that the current US sitting President thrives off of.  "Hey idiots look over here!  Blah, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone, (who buys into it) gets all sucked up and twisted up over something that's just not relevant to the issues at hand while in the meantime real and relevant things are going down and slipping under the radar.  

Just because it's on the internet sure as hell doesn't make it "real information".  What's concerning is real lives are impacted by bad/incorrect information posted on the internet every day.
Agreed, it has some similarities to the distasteful parts of mainstream politics, though is far less evolved. 100% agree, just because it is on the internet doesn't make it true. Having said that, I am a real person, and what I have posted here is both earnest and what I believe to be true.

My conversations are directly with people involved with the process, so it is second hand information from them. 

I hope and pray the ILCA class leaders and builders are NOT looking at the f'ing SA forum for ANY information.  Seriously?!? coming here for the holy grail of information?!? Talk about derailing a negotiation.
That is a false hope. We know that Andy Roy has been here, and also Chris Caldecoat posted a while back but has largely been silent more recently. Others have reacted to specifically what what has appeared here. Some key players reached out to me to ask if I knew who IPLore or Wess are. (I don't know nor care to find out). 

Actually, the negotiation has not been derailed by what has been posted here, I believe the opposite is true. This thread and the Blowtorch thread have had an impact; real change has occurred as a consequence of what key players decided to be released through here - and not just through me.

This is not some holy grail of information. I have not been the only source of information posting here.

Tillerman is interesting, because he supports Kirby being paid royalties, supports ILCA and shares many perspectives with me - including the welfare of Laser sailing. However this process has poisoned him against me, which is partly my fault for 'pushing back' passive aggressively; though also partly due to an organised campaign against me in which Tillerman was poisoned with. To Tillerman's credit, he posts with his boat numbers, and is not hiding his identity. (I hold no resentment towards Tillerman.)

---

As I and others tried to figure stuff out over the last six years, I have formed a couple of solid friendships as a direct result of posting here. (Though clearly not with Tillerman!). Recently one conversation with a relatively new contact ended with a loose agreement to share a beer - and toast the resolution of the current rift between EurILCA and ILCA.

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I'm one who believes that it is far far better to be a 'straight shooter' and post the perceived truth. (ie what I believe to be true). To this end, I have never posted here under another account (or 'sock puppet') and am happy to post under my own name. I believe that in the end, both with mainstream politics and on small forums like Sailing Anarchy, the BS will almost always be outed when confronted by the truth. Why anyone posts mistruths and disinformation perplexes me as the benefits are usually short lived.

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,485
2,716
Rhode Island
Screen Shot 2019-06-19 at 5.26.38 PM.png

 

jgh66

Anarchist
If true, that would be brilliant.

I was one of the minority of Laser class members who voted against ILCA's change to its rules to remove the requirement that approved builders had to have agreements with Bruce Kirby.

 
Andy mentioned that many pages back. Don’t know why you would want to pay the bum - he had been milking that almost century old doodle for too long, and even wanted to and got paid to walk away - but hey if it’s a path out of the woods the greedy grey hair is the least of our problems so go let’s pay. Wouldn’t want his grandkids grandkids to have to work LOL. 
The Kirby designed boat / Laser is an international and olympic class that is sailed in about 120 countries (I´ve heard). Olympic discussion is about 2024 in France.

In Germany, and I believe in France it is the same: we don´t have a copyright law. Instead we have an "Authors Right" - exclusive rights to profit from one's work granted to authors (Urheberrecht - droit d’auteur ). These are personal rights that can´t be sold, and can´t be hold by companys. The Author can only grant a license, he can´t sell the rights. This law does include the right, that the work (in this case a boat) may not be modified without agreement of the author. That means as an example: if an architect has designed a special building, the owner of that building needs to ask the architect for permission, if he wants to modify the visual appearance of said building. For boats this would mean, that the designer has the right to forbid modifications to the boat. Even if only the sail or rig shall be modified, you first need permission. The same might be true for the Laser construction manual, and all the documents the designer made (class rules?).  These rights are valid until 70 years of death of the author.

I think some people in the US/UK think that with modifications to the boats - like new rigs - royalty payments could be avoided. I don´t know how this under US/UK or any of the other 116 countries law is working, at least some important countries this is not going to work.

For an international/olympic class I think it is essential that olympic material must be legal in all countries, of course especially in the hosting country of the next event.

To pay the designer royalties ensures wordwide availibilty, and a much clearer legal situation.  If anybody has a right to get some money - and we talk about +/- 80 € per boat - than it would be the designer. As far as I know the contract between Kirby and LPE was cancelled. Under french / german law Kirby could sign a new contract with LPE, but he does not have to do that. Maybe it´s wiser to sign such a contract with ILCA or WS...

I have to add: I´m not a lawyer, that´s just industry experience..

But please US guys: have a look outside your own county, this is about international things, and US courts don`t rule the whole world.

 
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Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Everybody involved in has only one interest:

more Boats  under more sailors.
Absolutely, totally agree.

There is no way to have a “conflict of interest.”

Everybody involved with wants a few common ground things or shouldn’t  be involved. 

*Sell more new Lasers

* make it more likely sailors will come play 
Disagree, though my disagreement is qualified.

The conflict comes where there is only one game in town, and it is controlled by those who desire to financially profit from all parts of it, including racing and coaching.

Governance sets the rules to play, where some things are held to be more important than profit.

(That's why capitalism works best with *good* regulations set by elected official for whom financial profit is not elevated above other important objectives. For example, if treating pollution hurts profits, then less pollution is treated.)

So when important stuff occurs that is in the interests of Laser sailors, but not to the interests of a commercial interest - is precisely where the conflict occurs.

Governance is best left to those who represent the Laser sailors, elected by the Laser sailors, who declare their conflicts of interest before being elected.

 
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RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,166
1,666
Charleston, SC
Agreed, it has some similarities to the distasteful parts of mainstream politics, though is far less evolved. 100% agree, just because it is on the internet doesn't make it true. Having said that, I am a real person, and what I have posted here is both earnest and what I believe to be true.

My conversations are directly with people involved with the process, so it is second hand information from them. 

That is a false hope. We know that Andy Roy has been here, and also Chris Caldecoat posted a while back but has largely been silent more recently. Others have reacted to specifically what what has appeared here. Some key players reached out to me to ask if I knew who IPLore or Wess are. (I don't know nor care to find out). 

Actually, the negotiation has not been derailed by what has been posted here, I believe the opposite is true. This thread and the Blowtorch thread have had an impact; real change has occurred as a consequence of what key players decided to be released through here - and not just through me.

This is not some holy grail of information. I have not been the only source of information posting here.

Tillerman is interesting, because he supports Kirby being paid royalties, supports ILCA and shares many perspectives with me - including the welfare of Laser sailing. However this process has poisoned him against me, which is partly my fault for 'pushing back' passive aggressively; though also partly due to an organised campaign against me in which Tillerman was poisoned with. To Tillerman's credit, he posts with his boat numbers, and is not hiding his identity. (I hold no resentment towards Tillerman.)

---

As I and others tried to figure stuff out over the last six years, I have formed a couple of solid friendships as a direct result of posting here. (Though clearly not with Tillerman!). Recently one conversation with a relatively new contact ended with a loose agreement to share a beer - and toast the resolution of the current rift between EurILCA and ILCA.

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I'm one who believes that it is far far better to be a 'straight shooter' and post the perceived truth. (ie what I believe to be true). To this end, I have never posted here under another account (or 'sock puppet') and am happy to post under my own name. I believe that in the end, both with mainstream politics and on small forums like Sailing Anarchy, the BS will almost always be outed when confronted by the truth. Why anyone posts mistruths and disinformation perplexes me as the benefits are usually short lived.
Ok.  I'm back.  Like a moth to a flame I just can't stay away....  I do appreciate keeping the conversation civil and level headed.

As the US D12 District Secretary and sometimes traveling master I too have had direct conversations via e-mail with a couple of ILCA leaders, (when I see them at regattas I refuse to talk business because we're there to have fun!).   When I've been asked not to share what has been told to me I have not shared it at all, with anyone, (even under the "unidentified, but trusted source" stipulation) as I believe I've been asked to keep the info under wraps for a reason. 

So, I do get very frustrated when I see this kind of information "leak" occur.  My personal experiences with folks like Eric, Andy and Tracey lead me to personally believe the ILCA is in good hands and everything happening is being carried out in a well planned, methodical manner.  

So, yes, fortunately or unfortunately everyone most likely IS watching this thread and I'd hate to see progress get derailed because of information, (true or not) shared here.

As far as the "improper actions" or "conflict of interest" accusations being discussed here....What good can come from that?  If it's true I'm 100% sure it's a part of the current high level discussions and being negotiated now.  There's just no good reason to drag people through the mud here weather it's true or not.

(full disclosure. having been on this forum since the late 90's I'm sure I've done my fair share of mud slinging at some point or another, but as you get older I think your brain slows like reflexes which can be a good thing or maybe it's just maturity finally kicking in....)

So, again, I just prefer to get the updates, (as fleeting as they currently are...) from those who are involved and authorized to share.  Otherwise, it is just wheel spinning speculation which, again, IMHO serves no greater good.

 

dgmckim

Anarchist
582
282
North Carolina
As the US D12 District Secretary and sometimes traveling master I too have had direct conversations via e-mail with a couple of ILCA leaders, (when I see them at regattas I refuse to talk business because we're there to have fun!).   When I've been asked not to share what has been told to me I have not shared it at all, with anyone, (even under the "unidentified, but trusted source" stipulation) as I believe I've been asked to keep the info under wraps for a reason. 
i get the feeling some people 'leak' what they want the public to hear to sway popular opinion, and they share with people whom they know will spill the beans. Sounds like gantt/bruce might just be a pawn in someone else's agenda. They know where it'll all end up.

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
So, I do get very frustrated when I see this kind of information "leak" occur.  My personal experiences with folks like Eric, Andy and Tracey lead me to personally believe the ILCA is in good hands and everything happening is being carried out in a well planned, methodical manner.  
With all personal communications, I have been asked to not post specific things I have been told, and have not posted them. Further, I am careful not to post information that can be used to identify who I have been speaking to.

So, again, I just prefer to get the updates, (as fleeting as they currently are...) from those who are involved and authorized to share.  Otherwise, it is just wheel spinning speculation which, again, IMHO serves no greater good.
In my period 'away' when I lurked, it was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. LP had made announcements, ILCA had responded, and EurILCA was showing signs of being highly influenced by LP. Calls were being made by LP to move the ILCA to Europe. A sustained misinformation campaign had begun which had all the hallmarks of exactly what I have been exposed to in my professional life. I believe the ILCA to be poorly equipped for this kind of attack, and I use the word "attack" deliberately, because it is one. The rift which EurILCA and ILCA have right now can be undone.

The big questions are:

  • what are the foundations of the rift?
  • what are the specific items of misinformation/disinformation?
  • what are the vested interests and conflicts of interests, both perceived and real?

Unpacking them is one thing. Informing the Laser community which includes ILCA members and beyond (coaches, club sailors, ex members etc) is another. Many care a lot, but simply don't know. My view is that Laser sailors everywhere would object to their class fracturing or being governed by commercial interests - but they have to know first.

Over the last few hours we have had movement. LP has posted on their FB page this:
image.png

For months in Europe, there has been a sustained disinformation campaign promoting the false notion ILCA is not being run in a democratic fashion.

That is clearly false, though is a hot topic among the Laser community, especially Italy given their recent history.

As far as the "improper actions" or "conflict of interest" accusations being discussed here....What good can come from that?  If it's true I'm 100% sure it's a part of the current high level discussions and being negotiated now.  There's just no good reason to drag people through the mud here weather it's true or not.
This is a foundation of the rift between the ILCA World Council and the EurILCA executive committee. I have taken the time to communicate with members of both over the last few months. This is not dragging people through the mud, please give me a little more credit than that.

As a consequence of this becoming public, key players now need to choose who they are representing.

---

Moving forward.

Either LP is playing a game of brinkmanship, or this is a play towards LP's stated objective to monetize more levels of sailing, including governance. Laser is the most important one design class in the world, and the more anyone controls Laser sailing, the more control one has over all sailing.

And "play" is the right word. Because someone, somewhere is "playing" EurILCA against ILCA, and up until June it has been working. To some extent that has been disrupted in June; one pathway is to address conflicts. The reason that conflicts and possible impropriety needs to be discussed openly and honestly is that it is a pathway to resolving some of the broken trust between ILCA and EurILCA. Also, there is an inevitable vote about to happen, so the Laser community needs to know.

If I was in a meeting and want to guarantee discord between two groups of earnest volunteers, what could I say? How could I say it? Would I say it more than once, just to be sure?

There are now published strategies on how to sow discord. No longer is this is realm of people with super high IQs being paid for by the powerful, this is a matter of following a playbook which is now in the public realm.  

What will conquer the ILCA/EurILCA rift in my view is more openness, which will hopefully be achieved by Eric in a few hours at the Masters in Europe. What I fear most is that there may be some at the meeting who are there to sow discord; and what is needed are measures to mitigate that risk. The challenge will be to undo some of the misinformation.

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No doubt there will be a response to the above message by LP, and likely some direct communications to key players that accompanied it.

Sounds like gantt/bruce might just be a pawn in someone else's agenda. They know where it'll all end up.
I have considered that too. In preparation of what I have released here I usually consider exactly that. No, I don't believe I am, though won't deny the possibility. I am independent of all players, though deeply opposed to the tactics used by some. Even the above is a measured response - and I take full responsibility. I hope the above shows a little of my rationale, though more importantly lifts the awareness of this small corner of the Laser community what is being going on. For now, the ILCA position is he closest to my own.

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
On the LPE facebook page...

Discussions with World Sailing Continue

Aiming to meet World Sailing’s August 1 deadline, LaserPerformance has been in discussion with World Sailing to finalize the Commercial Undertakings contract with builders. LaserPerformance has fully endorsed the FRAND policy stipulated in it and has requested clarifications as to the role and rights of the trademark holders.
Meanwhile, ILCA has issued to us a proposal named New Builder Approval Process which is under review. LaserPerformance is happy to engage in substantive discussions of this document and has shared its comments with World Sailing, but LP first requires ILCA’s agreement to a new license contract between the two parties so that there is a legal basis for negotiations.


ILCA Needs Change

Recent ILCA actions including the attempt to change Laser’s name (when the Laser boat stood a strong chance of being dropped by World Sailing from the Olympics) and the illegal expulsion of LaserPerformance, shows that ILCA’s management is not following its constitution and not listening to the majority of its members. LaserPerformance continues to call for:
1. The move of ILCA offices back to Europe where the majority of the members are located.
2. The resignation of ILCA’s President and Secretary.
3. The introduction of Term Limits for ILCA Executives.
4. Gender balance and better youth representation on ILCA’s World Council.


I am getting the feeling that all the parties are going to end up back in court and the class fractured.  What a mess.
 

Wess

Super Anarchist
So now LPE is increasing its demands?
No idea but reading between the lines of what little both ILCA and LPE have put out there it seems pretty clear the parties are entrenched and neither is moving off their positions of essentially trying to exclude the other (no value judgement intended in that just can't think of a better way to say it... the exclusion of the other seems to be at the end of the respective path's of each).  Maybe either or both are just playing chicken hoping the other blinks first but it doesn't seem like it.  No sign of compromise from  either side.

Curious what you think of all this given you are a traveling master sailor @RobbieB.

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,173
1,064
South East England
...there has been a sustained disinformation campaign ...
And you appear to be a significant part of it. All this stuff about conflicts of interest seems to be coming from you. Are you being someone's 'useful idiot'?

There may or may not have been payments to a couple of ILCA officers. If there were no payments there are no conflicts of interest.

Any such payments, if they existed, may or may not have been legitimate under contractual or related requirements between ILCA and LPE. If they were legitimate there are no conflicts of interest.

If there were payments that were not legitimate then what you are alleging, on no evidence beyond a source which might well be part of your disinformation campaign, would seem to be rather more serious than a conflict of interest.

 
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RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,166
1,666
Charleston, SC
No idea but reading between the lines of what little both ILCA and LPE have put out there it seems pretty clear the parties are entrenched and neither is moving off their positions of essentially trying to exclude the other (no value judgement intended in that just can't think of a better way to say it... the exclusion of the other seems to be at the end of the respective path's of each).  Maybe either or both are just playing chicken hoping the other blinks first but it doesn't seem like it.  No sign of compromise from  either side.

Curious what you think of all this given you are a traveling master sailor @RobbieB.
Well...Being in North America I'm biased against LP due to the constant supply issues we've had to deal with for years.  From my perspective I don't see how things could be any worse.  Therefore, there's really nothing to loose with the current ILCA direction.  Again, it's just my opinion.  I also don't see loosing the Olympics changing the masters scene in my little part of the world being D12.  It feels a little "cool" to say I compete in an "Olympic" boat, but so what? We are pretty much a group of "budget sailors" so I don't see us running out to buy Aero's, (which there are currently none in NC or SC and I'm not sure if there are any in GA yet).  The Melges 14 has a small hold in Atlanta, but I don't see us running out to drop $12k+ for a new single handed dingy when we're still pulling fleets of 15 to 20 in our district events, (full rig numbers and radials are similar).  The VX Evo has 3-4 boats in a small coastal town on SC.  They rarely sail, never travel to open events so are pretty much vapor ware, (and $15k).  

Again, I know most of the ILCA players involved and trust what they are doing.  So I'm content to hang out and see how things unfold.   

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
And you appear to be a significant part of it. All this stuff about conflicts of interest seems to be coming from you. Are you being someone's 'useful idiot'?

There may or may not have been payments to a couple of ILCA officers. If there were no payments there are no conflicts of interest.

Such payments may or may not have been legitimate under contractual or related requirements between ILCA and LPE. If they were legitimate there are no conflicts of interest.

If there were payments that were not legitimate then what you are alleging, on no evidence beyond a source which might well be part of your disinformation campaign, would seem to be rather more serious than a conflict of interest.
Thank you for raising this. 

Most here seem to be making the assumption that I think I know that the impropriety is true: I don't.

Just as destructive is perceived impropriety. So even if it is not true, it became apparent to me that perceived impropriety was a significant part of distrust between EurILCA and ILCA.

I did react to being told about what Rastegar allegedly said, so for about a week I posted information about conflicts - before releasing the information. That was my decision, nobody else was involved in that decision.

So even if there were no conflicts of interest, the certainly was (and is) perceived conflicts of interest. Putting it bluntly, members of ILCA world council suspect impropriety between LP and EurILCA; AND members of the EurILCA executive committee suspect impropriety between PSA and ILCA.

There is perceived impropriety.

I can't say for sure that both sides are being played. I am not revealing all that I have been told, but I will say this: It has all of the hallmarks that EurILCA and ILCA have been played against each other. Proving it is an entirely different matter. 

---

Because there is millions of dollars of boat building business each year (the racing and coaching is collectively worth more), and because of perceived conflicts, there is a solid reason to introduce the World Sailing conflicts of interest policy to the higher levels of governance for the Laser class. Including the ILCA World Council and the EurILCA.

Additionally, the information that is out there needs to be properly dealt with. The consequence of not dealing with the misinformation properly is that ILCA members will not feel they were properly informed when they made their vote.

There is precious little time.

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
Well...Being in North America I'm biased against LP due to the constant supply issues we've had to deal with for years.  From my perspective I don't see how things could be any worse.  Therefore, there's really nothing to loose with the current ILCA direction.  Again, it's just my opinion.  I also don't see loosing the Olympics changing the masters scene in my little part of the world being D12.  It feels a little "cool" to say I compete in an "Olympic" boat, but so what? We are pretty much a group of "budget sailors" so I don't see us running out to buy Aero's, (which there are currently none in NC or SC and I'm not sure if there are any in GA yet).  The Melges 14 has a small hold in Atlanta, but I don't see us running out to drop $12k+ for a new single handed dingy when we're still pulling fleets of 15 to 20 in our district events, (full rig numbers and radials are similar).  The VX Evo has 3-4 boats in a small coastal town on SC.  They rarely sail, never travel to open events so are pretty much vapor ware, (and $15k).  

Again, I know most of the ILCA players involved and trust what they are doing.  So I'm content to hang out and see how things unfold.   
Yea with you. Same here. Everyone sick of LPE supply problems and if push comes to shove few care much re Olympics. Have not had a chance to confirm it’s true but friend said class grew much faster prior and general decline and flattening in growth when selected. Not sure if he was talking boat sales or class members. Most seem to agree boat and charter prices going to rise quite a bit under FRAND but most of those buying new and or traveling didn’t see it as big concern. Guess it’s true....all politics are local. Most here would seem to vote out LPE because like you said it’s hard to get worse (and most class members not price sensitive) where it sounds like most EU would vote to keep em. Thus Andy’s European vacation LOL. 

Interesting  to follow - and suspect the coming court case is going to be really fun to follow - but I am so glad I am a cruising wank now!

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
thousands more in my community would probably sail and or buy if there were a store full of them 

in the meantime, it is hard to set up regattas of enthusiastic Laser sailors with spicy new toys when nobody sells them 

i hope someday somebody gets in that business 
Its a nice dream but I think you are dreaming.

Everything you say here is already there with the Aero.  They build what you want but nobody came. A few posts back I think (?) you said it was a flop in your region.  Don't like ther Aero, how about the UFO.  Easy to buy.  Where are the thousands in your community?

This is not build it and they will come.  I think they have gone.  Like the horse, carriage and buggy whip they are gone and they ain't coming back. 

Its a niche sport fragmented into many many pieces.

Maybe if ILCA and LPE both recognized that they could find some way to work together.  Fighting to be in charge of a buggy whip maker and club.  How freaking stupid.

 




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