ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

jgh66

Anarchist
How has the International Laser Class Association worked with LP to help understand past successful distribution systems and how has the ILCA helped LP to re-establish a profitable distribution network? 

As I understand it, LP has gone from COD  to a system where dealers must pay in advance when ordering. Rumor has it LP has taken advance deposits and has failed to deliver on time. In fact LP has been months or even a year late.

What a mess!! 
Can´t you just order at https://www.laserperformance.us/boats-more/boats/laser?lang=en_US  ?

Don´t they have stock, or this page just fake?

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,121
1,582
Charleston, SC
From what I've heard the only way to get a new hull in the US is to buy a charter boat after a big event.  A friend on mine got a new hull two years ago, (the dealer only had 1) only to find out a year later at a regatta his new hull came with an non-class legal practice sail!

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Can´t you just order at https://www.laserperformance.us/boats-more/boats/laser?lang=en_US  ?

Don´t they have stock, or this page just fake?
Dealers have complained its like sending money into a black hole.  No way would I send LPE money in the hopes of seeing a boat.  This below is what I think many in the US do and then they get passed on down through the fleet.

From what I've heard the only way to get a new hull in the US is to buy a charter boat after a big event.  A friend on mine got a new hull two years ago, (the dealer only had 1) only to find out a year later at a regatta his new hull came with an non-class legal practice sail!

 

jgh66

Anarchist
Are they allowed to sell new Lasers in the US? I remember that there was something in the Kirby vs Rastegar stuff about the license for the USA...

And what´s about the other boats they offer?

Sunfish and Club 420 are boats that are  completely unknown in europe.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Are they allowed to sell new Lasers in the US? I remember that there was something in the Kirby vs Rastegar stuff about the license for the USA...

And what´s about the other boats they offer?

Sunfish and Club 420 are boats that are  completely unknown in europe.
Yes they are allowed to sell in the US.

 

Bill5

Super Anarchist
2,603
2,086
Western Canada
image.gif

I'm one who believes that it is far far better to be a 'straight shooter'...
Sorry, Bruce. I wish you actually walked the walk. You admittedly held back on the Rastegar comments until you educated (or tried to educate) us on conflicts, and opined on the need for WS-style protocol. The conversation went all over the place with names dropped and allegations expanded. Hardly a straight shot. I am assuming you never intended to besmirch any one,  hope you weren't being fed the info for a cause, and that you were genuinely concerned about the conflict issue.  As such, you could have saved yourself a ton of aggravation had you started the whole thing off like this:

Three people who were each either in attendance at the May 21 meeting or listening in have all told me that, in a heated moment,  Rastegar claimed to have paid two people on the ILCA World Council. Whether this is true or not, it does make we wonder why the ILCA does not have the same conflict of interest protocol as World Sailing. I was also surprised to see that none of the other Olympic classes have similar protocol - nor do a bunch of other WS classes I quickly checked on (Opti, OK, Fireball, 505, Tasar)

You could have then brought it all home with what you said recently (my edit in red):

"Because there is millions of dollars of boat building business each year (the racing and coaching is collectively worth more), and because of the opportunity for  conflicts, there is a solid reason to introduce the World Sailing conflicts of interest policy to the higher levels of governance for" the Laser and all World Sailing classes. This initiative should come as a directive from World Sailing to the classes.

However, recognizing your need to be somewhat controversial (which is part of the fun of SA), you could have pointed out an interesting little tidbit in the 49er constitution (apologies if Julian already mentioned this somewhere). Imagine if this was in the ILCA constitution!

7.16 In the event of the World Council passing a resolution which in the reasonable

opinion of Copyright Holder is contrary to the business interests of the

Copyright Holder and the Builders, the Copyright Holder may request the

resolution be referred to the Executive Committee of the World Sailing for

binding arbitration or to such other body selected by World Sailing with

agreement of the parties.

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torrid

Super Anarchist
1,061
410
I think there is no dispute that the North American market is not being properly serviced.  However this question comes to mind.  Is LPE unable to service it because of its own financial difficulties, or are they unwilling to service it because there isn't enough return?

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,121
1,582
Charleston, SC
I think there is no dispute that the North American market is not being properly serviced.  However this question comes to mind.  Is LPE unable to service it because of its own financial difficulties, or are they unwilling to service it because there isn't enough return?
Well. I have been told by suppliers that the sail making companies were not releasing sails due to lack of payment on previous releases from LP.  What does not make sense about that is if that were the case then there would be supply issues in europe.  However, it just seems to be North America and it's not just sails.  It's all the small stuff as well like blades, mast/boom fittings. Even freaking $2.00 dagger board breaks or the board stoppers.  Again, I go back to the "theory" that Rasty has some kind of issue with NA and has issued a company directive regarding not allowing parts being delivered to the region.  Maybe it's because the ILCA exec's are all from NA?  Again, it's just a theory, but It's like we're being choked out.  Also, if Rasty was having money problems the rest of Europe would be feeling it as well.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Well. I have been told by suppliers that the sail making companies were not releasing sails due to lack of payment on previous releases from LP.  What does not make sense about that is if that were the case then there would be supply issues in europe.  However, it just seems to be North America and it's not just sails.  It's all the small stuff as well like blades, mast/boom fittings. Even freaking $2.00 dagger board breaks or the board stoppers.  Again, I go back to the "theory" that Rasty has some kind of issue with NA and has issued a company directive regarding not allowing parts being delivered to the region.  Maybe it's because the ILCA exec's are all from NA?  Again, it's just a theory, but It's like we're being choked out.  Also, if Rasty was having money problems the rest of Europe would be feeling it as well.
There is no logical reason I can think of that would have EU well supplied and US so poorly supplied (including high margin stuff from others where its just a pass through) other than exactly what you describe. Its the one part of this where I don't have any clue about the motivations because its simply not logical.  Everything else, love it or hate it I can at least understand the motivation.  The lack of US supply... of anything... same as Sunfish... no freaking clue.

 

dgmckim

Anarchist
582
282
North Carolina
Well. I have been told by suppliers that the sail making companies were not releasing sails due to lack of payment on previous releases from LP.  What does not make sense about that is if that were the case then there would be supply issues in europe.  However, it just seems to be North America and it's not just sails.  It's all the small stuff as well like blades, mast/boom fittings. Even freaking $2.00 dagger board breaks or the board stoppers.  Again, I go back to the "theory" that Rasty has some kind of issue with NA and has issued a company directive regarding not allowing parts being delivered to the region.  Maybe it's because the ILCA exec's are all from NA?  Again, it's just a theory, but It's like we're being choked out.  Also, if Rasty was having money problems the rest of Europe would be feeling it as well.
so he's trying to pressure NA execs to leave their position by starving their region? that's cold

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Sorry, Bruce. I wish you actually walked the walk. You admittedly held back on the Rastegar comments until you educated (or tried to educate) us on conflicts, and opined on the need for WS-style protocol. The conversation went all over the place with names dropped and allegations expanded. Hardly a straight shot. I am assuming you never intended to besmirch any one,  hope you weren't being fed the info for a cause, and that you were genuinely concerned about the conflict issue. 
Just because you don't think I walk the walk, doesn't mean I don't try my best to. I don't think I'm perfect; you (Bill) seem to be framing a story whis is different to what actually occurred.

What actually happened - and I know because it was me - was that I pushed hard to introduce conflicts while I contemplated the information I had been given. I released it as I said above, which included consideration of all of the impacts I could think of. In the end, I see releasing this as helping to force the issue of conflicts in the Laser class, because in my view perceived conflicts has lead to a rift between EurILCA and ILCA.

I am very passionate about the welfare of Laser sailing. Yes, Bill, I could have done better. It may surprise you how much time I spend on this - not much at all (at least by my standards).

At the European Masters, Eric F led a meeting where he appeared to have no plan other than to simply tell the truth. When you are up against essentially a mob that has been misinformed, then what is needed is a more sophisticated approach. The misinformation needs dealing with first. This does not alter the importance of telling the truth, it is about having a strategy (or agenda) to deal with:

  • People who shout nasty messages ('mob leaders')
  • The specific items of misinformation
  • Persons who are there specifically to disrupt proceedings

I am genuinely concerned about the effects of conflicts (both perceived and real) in ILCA and EurILCA.

In the end, you will see that I am highly concerned about democracy in the ILCA/EurILCA, and the very real influence of commercial interests being held in higher regard than the interest of Laser sailors. For example, with what Robbie said about suppliers:

Well. I have been told by suppliers that the sail making companies were not releasing sails due to lack of payment on previous releases from LP.  What does not make sense about that is if that were the case then there would be supply issues in europe.  However, it just seems to be North America and it's not just sails.  It's all the small stuff as well like blades, mast/boom fittings. Even freaking $2.00 dagger board breaks or the board stoppers.  Again, I go back to the "theory" that Rasty has some kind of issue with NA and has issued a company directive regarding not allowing parts being delivered to the region.  Maybe it's because the ILCA exec's are all from NA?  Again, it's just a theory, but It's like we're being choked out.  Also, if Rasty was having money problems the rest of Europe would be feeling it as well.
So if priority for service was given to EU over NA, would that help sow discord?

Read this through the lens as if the author was influenced through projection of their own intentions.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LP-response-061213.pdf

Was the author or the author's master a straight shooter? 

I really do shoot as straight as I can. That's because I believe the truth will win in the end - so there is no point lying. In my view lying hurts the person doing the lying most. So I don't. I have six years history on this site where I have got something wrong, I have admitted it. I am not perfect. Nor am I going away any time soon.

 

Bill5

Super Anarchist
2,603
2,086
Western Canada
so he's trying to pressure NA execs to leave their position by starving their region? that's cold
Our local dealer just received 6 of the 12 new top sections he ordered...in 2017. LPE just don't care about the NA market and bits of each of the theories why are probably true. I wonder if anybody has looked into logistics and costs to get boats from Australia or Japan? 

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,101
963
South East England
In this case its an Iranian who seems to have lived in the US since he did an MBA at Columbia Business school, and before that appears to have been an exact contemporary of mine at Imperial College in London, although I don't remember the name.

 
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