ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

jgh66

Anarchist
There is no logical reason I can think of that would have EU well supplied and US so poorly supplied (including high margin stuff from others where its just a pass through) other than exactly what you describe. Its the one part of this where I don't have any clue about the motivations because its simply not logical.  Everything else, love it or hate it I can at least understand the motivation.  The lack of US supply... of anything... same as Sunfish... no freaking clue.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4201775/bruce-kirby-inc-v-laserperformance-europe-limited/?page=3

Maybe legal reasons? I must admid that I can´t completely understand this stuff...difficult to get for non natives, and with no knowledge on your legal system..

 

torrid

Super Anarchist
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It seems to me LP under started this whole mess by refusing to pay royalties. Everybody was pretty happy before that, weren’t they? 

Now everybody seems to be angling to own/control the Laser: IOC, WS, ILCA, LP. I find it shocking. 

The Laser trademark issue is only window dressing. The name doesn’t really matter to me except for nostalgia. I think Kirby will win. And I think he SHOULD win.

And in the end we will have what drew so many to the boat and the sport of sailing: a simple, inexpensive and exciting boat. Tight class rules not “pay to win”. 

The Laser became an Olympic class precisely because of its popularity. And as soon as this debacle is over we can get back to sailing. 

If our leadership can’t sort this out I’d suggest replace them not the boat. 

 
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jgh66

Anarchist
You canntt understand basic legal concepts?
What I can understand are the arguments of GSL:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.464.2.pdf

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
OMG that is funny. I canntt believe anyone would be so silly as to try to peddle that pile of poop here. Only the lawnmower is that “smart.” IPL wrote much truth about why your friends did and continue to lose big in the first round. I suggest you consult his writings. I don’t play with puppets so will not waste further time to answer you. I will give you a hint though.... check out his lawyer’s name. I mean you canntt make this stuff up.

 
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Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
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New Zealand
I had hoped someone else would have a go at answering you properly.

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.
It depends which party you talk to. LP's position is that the contracts are not valid regarding Kirby's royalty (as it is documented in the case), while appear to be following other aspects of the same contracts - for example having ILCA perform an inspection in 2015. (ILCA perform the inspections as the agents of World Sailing as per the contract).

PSA is taking a wait and see approach. It doesn't really affect their main markets in Australian and New Zealand.

Kirby expressed a desire to retire, and sold the contracted designer rights to Global Sailing. (Global sailing has the same shareholders as PSA). I'm unclear what happened with this, however it would seem that the rights are now back with Kirby Inc.

With the case you cite, basically Kirby wants his royalties. According to the contracts, royalties apply no matter where LPE sell boats, and that includes Europe.

(From my experience of doing business in EU including Germany, there was a change about 10 years back regarding the sale of rights. I am fairly sure that will not affect rights which only exist because of contracts which were agreed to by non Germans outside of Germany: ie a different jurisdiction, even for boats sold within Germany.)

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?
I doubt that is LP's rationale. They still sell boats in North America, though getting them is problematic as discussed elsewhere. (A little side note - there are distribution issues in many areas that LP supplies outside of Europe. Also, inside of Europe, there is good service mostly where the main three suppliers are active. There are plenty of places in Europe where there are supply issues.)

All of this was thrown up-side-down in 2018 with World Sailing's new Olympic equipment policies which includes FRAND. It was ratified in March 2019, with a requirement that the Laser issues are in place by 1 August 2019. That's why things are moving faster right now.

So there are new agreements which were created, though it does not look likely that an agreement will be reached.

EurILCA are saying that there is a risk of further legal action. In my view using "ILCA" has a risk, because the "L" stands for Laser. The risk may not be about winning or losing any court battle - it may be the expense in time, money and brains to defend a more complex defense. (If it were up to me, I'd choose something completely different. Kirby had proposed "Torch". Maybe something different.)

The rift between the EurILCA executive committee and the ILCA World Council is a complication.

---

This was written from memory, and fast (I'm rushed). I'd welcome anyone to provide any additions or corrections to the above. I hope this is helpful. (I doubt I will get 49 likes for my efforts. ;)  )

 
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tillerman

Super Anarchist
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Rhode Island
What I can understand are the arguments of GSL:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.464.2.pdf

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?
What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 
LOL the real question is where do all the legal fees get paid to. Because I would be willing to bet that the lawyers have already made more money than Kirby sold out for. And after this coming second round.... the lawyers will be rich enough to own what is little is left of all the Laser manufacturing/selling businesses WW.

WW

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
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LOL the real question is where do all the legal fees get paid to. Because I would be willing to bet that the lawyers have already made more money than Kirby sold out for. And after this coming second round.... the lawyers will be rich enough to own what is little is left of all the Laser manufacturing/selling businesses WW.

WW
And who is really paying the lawyer bills? I hope "ET AL" has deep pockets.

 

jgh66

Anarchist
What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 
What I understood - with my very basic school english - is that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing. At one point the judge changed his mind, and now GSL is plaintiff in the same old, still ongoing lawcase. The rights are still somewhere, they don't got lost somewhere in the southern ocean.

I have no idea on the US legal system, but would think that LP not only has to pay the license fees, but also a fine, 2x the license fees and all costs of the lawcase if they lose. Maybe even all the money they earned by producing boats without a license plus a fine plus all lawyer and court costs. It also would not mean that GSL is obliged to sign a new contract with LPE. The contract was cancelled for good reasons. 

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Tiller - What rhymes with a dumb as a box of rocks?

5349120073_b24a88a503_b.jpg

 

torrid

Super Anarchist
1,061
410
What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 
I would imagine that what Kirby is angling for is a completely new agreement that supersedes the old agreements.  One agreed to by ILCA, WS, and all the various FRAND builders and license holders which pays him royalties.

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
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I would imagine that what Kirby is angling for is a completely new agreement that supersedes the old agreements.  One agreed to by ILCA, WS, and all the various FRAND builders and license holders which pays him royalties.
Would he then be able to sell his rights to these royalties to Global Sailing (like he did before?)

 
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tillerman

Super Anarchist
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Rhode Island
I have no idea on the US legal system, but would think that LP not only has to pay the license fees, but also a fine, 2x the license fees and all costs of the lawcase if they lose. Maybe even all the money they earned by producing boats without a license plus a fine plus all lawyer and court costs. It also would not mean that GSL is obliged to sign a new contract with LPE. The contract was cancelled for good reasons. 
Wow! I have no idea about UK or US bankruptcy law or of LP's finances or company structure, but I would think that would drive LP into bankruptcy.

Is that what GSL wants? Are they trying to destroy LP?

 
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jgh66

Anarchist
Wow! I have no idea about UK or US bankruptcy law or of LP's finances or company structure, but I would think that would drive LP into bankruptcy.

Is that what GSL wants? Are they trying to destroy LP?
I think LPE started this by not paying royalties. It's more like commercial suicide

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,099
961
South East England
There appears to be precious little of LPE left according to the latest public statement. No employees, very much reduced turnover. The trademarks and maybe even all the financial action seem to be elsewhere amongst Rastegar's many companies. I doubt it would be a major deal if LPE were wound up.

 
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