ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[Bruce Hudson]

It's amazing how determined the Europeans are to drag down the leadership of ILCA and how much they think they've been misrepresented. However, the one thing that I didn't hear throughout that video was exactly how they think they have been misrepresented by the ILCA leadership. Everyone present agreed that keeping the Laser in the Olympics should be a priority of the class, but nobody said what they would do differently about maintaining Olympic status. The only suggestion I heard was to continue trying to negotiate with LP and to not provoke them through changing the name, but surely at this point they need to realise that trying to reach an agreement with LP is impossible given LP's history with ILCA. 

One thing is very true. That EurILCA were instrumental in getting LP back to the table; initially with a request to release more plaques.

I agree that some Europeans were keen to drag down the leadership. However it is not all Europeans. Only around 600 signed the petition which called for the resignation of Tracy and Eric, referenced in the meeting. Whereas 9000 or so called for the Laser to be retained in the Olympics.

Tracy and Eric represent the majority viewpoint of the ILCA World Council.

I've got to give props to the ILCA for facing the hostile crowd there. I'm left wondering how all the euro folks will react if the vote fails and they let the Olympic selection slip through their fingers...  I'd guess they'll still blame the ILCA

That is what some commercial interests are quite literally banking on. 

There was some discussion about the differences between the ILCA World Council and the Sunfish executive council. You can see here that there is significant differences, with some Laser sailors quite happy to represent the LP perspective, in fact literally say that in the meeting.

This is because behind the scenes there has been a long campaign by LP in Europe to achieve that support.

However it is a mistake to think that all of Europe supports LP. 

Additionally there is a conflating of democratic process with other issues; in countries like mine which have excellent democracy, proportional representation this is a hot subject. Improving democratic processes is definitely separate to keeping the Laser in the Olympics.

 

[tillerman]

I've got to give props to the ILCA for facing the hostile crowd there. I'm left wondering how all the euro folks will react if the vote fails and they let the Olympic selection slip through their fingers...  I'd guess they'll still blame the ILCA

I think Charles Campion from the UK summed up the feeling well... "The Laser is more important than the Olympics....I don't want the class to lose Olympic status but I think  the class should not tear itself apart for Olympic status."

 

[torrid]

All the comments about an alternative class association, that means only one thing - run by the builder.  Be careful what you wish for..l

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Wow!! There was a lot of discomfort in that  meeting. 

Way too many rumors and frustrated folks 

Now that the rumours are 'out', what are the best ways of dealing with them?

At stake is an evitable vote, and if the name isn't changed, then builders will not be appointed, and supply issues won't be fixed.

Also the Laser won't comply with the World Sailing Olympic Equipment policy.

 

[Tcatman]

Where are the voices of the elite Laser sailors.....   They have the most skin in the game....the rank and file usually are persuaded by these folks??

 

[jgh66]

As being a european I can understand quite well the concerns of the sailers. There are different problems here than in the US, where no boats are availible. First have a look for the information politics of Eric an Tracey. On the german Laserclass site you can read, that 700 additional plaques were issued by ILCA/WS to LPE. From what I understood these are for boats that are already at the dealers. So the dealers might have made prepayments for these boats. Clients may have made prepayments to the dealers. As a client you may already have sold your old boat, that you need for campaining for olympics, youth worlds etc.. So the decertification of LPE at a time when most of the ordered boats had to be delivered has produced a lot trouble in Europe, especially just one year before the olympics. What would you do, when you want to pickup a new boat, who,ve already paid for, and find out that it's not class legal, and you can't use it? The info about these 700 plaques I could only find in german language, but not on the ILCA pages, which also had lead to some strange comments here on the forum. Why don't they inform on why they issued plaques? Was that correct? The information politics of the world coucil are very bad in the view of the europeans, and I can absolutely understand that the sailers have the feeling that the world coucils has seperated itself from the sailers base. Why don't they inform the sailers correctly and don't react openly on letters they were getting from EURLCA ? LPE has published that ILCA were not checking the production for years, and gave ILCA the responsibility for that. Now Eric says in the video the first time that this is not true, cause LP has refused technical inspections since 2015. Who is lying here? Why don't they inform on their homepage about that. Why don't they say that LPE infos are incorrect? Why don't they inform about the ongoing legal case in the US and the possible consequences of that? In other classes there is always a long international discussion before class rules can be changed. In Laser the world council seems to make confidential discussions with other parties, and tells the sailers what they have to do. There is in my opinion a big communication problem. Nevertheless I think Eric and Tracey are on the right path. But the way they try to manage the class is less than perfect. Also look at the illegal boats. Of course it was stupid that LPE  leaked these confidential infos, as this means the class is now divided in new - better and stiffer boats - and the old ones. Better boats is good, but "one design" is destroyed. No discussion, no infos, no member vote on that. Would have been unbelievable in other one design classes, 

 

[CenterboardBrake]

In a layered organization like ILCA just who has the responsibility for informing the sailors? For example, why would you volunteer to be a district representative if the Regional and International people simply go around you to communicate with your sailors? Perhaps the communication problem is the downward flow of the information through the regions to the districts to the sailors?  

 

[tillerman]

In a layered organization like ILCA just who has the responsibility for informing the sailors? For example, why would you volunteer to be a district representative if the Regional and International people simply go around you to communicate with your sailors? Perhaps the communication problem is the downward flow of the information through the regions to the districts to the sailors?  

As a former Laser class district secretary, the main reason for volunteering to take on a job like that is to organize the district regatta circuit, publicize information about about those local regattas to members, encourage as many sailors as possible to come to those regattas, publish reports about those local regattas etc. etc.

In this day and age of digital communications I had no problem with the Regional and International Classes communicating directly to members in my district about regional and international issues and announcements and news. I didn't feel they had to do all that through me. That would just slow things down.

Yes, it is important for a district secretary to maintain good two-way communication with sailors in their district but that doesn't mean that the regional and international class officers can't communicate with them directly too.

 

[CenterboardBrake]

Hard to watch the video and have respect for the European representatives. That meeting went off the rails the minute Jean-Luc Michon was given the microphone and and fabricated a lie about not receiving an email. No apology when caught out in real time, instead his partner complained that it took like a day for her to get it. JFC, perfect example of why this has become such a mess, people more concerned about being important than in helping to solve the problem at hand. And at the end of the day, Eric made the effort to be there to, unbelievably, communicate directly to the sailors. And he gets shredded for doing it. 

 

[lonbordin]

Wow... Maybe the Aero will steal a last minute victory.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

As being a european I can understand quite well the concerns of the sailers. There are different problems here than in the US, where no boats are availible. First have a look for the information politics of Eric an Tracey. On the german Laserclass site you can read, that 700 additional plaques were issued by ILCA/WS to LPE. From what I understood these are for boats that are already at the dealers. So the dealers might have made prepayments for these boats. Clients may have made prepayments to the dealers. As a client you may already have sold your old boat, that you need for campaining for olympics, youth worlds etc.. So the decertification of LPE at a time when most of the ordered boats had to be delivered has produced a lot trouble in Europe, especially just one year before the olympics. What would you do, when you want to pickup a new boat, who,ve already paid for, and find out that it's not class legal, and you can't use it? The info about these 700 plaques I could only find in german language, but not on the ILCA pages, which also had lead to some strange comments here on the forum. Why don't they inform on why they issued plaques? Was that correct? The information politics of the world coucil are very bad in the view of the europeans, and I can absolutely understand that the sailers have the feeling that the world coucils has seperated itself from the sailers base. Why don't they inform the sailers correctly and don't react openly on letters they were getting from EURLCA ? LPE has published that ILCA were not checking the production for years, and gave ILCA the responsibility for that. Now Eric says in the video the first time that this is not true, cause LP has refused technical inspections since 2015. Who is lying here? Why don't they inform on their homepage about that. Why don't they say that LPE infos are incorrect? Why don't they inform about the ongoing legal case in the US and the possible consequences of that? In other classes there is always a long international discussion before class rules can be changed. In Laser the world council seems to make confidential discussions with other parties, and tells the sailers what they have to do. There is in my opinion a big communication problem. Nevertheless I think Eric and Tracey are on the right path. But the way they try to manage the class is less than perfect. Also look at the illegal boats. Of course it was stupid that LPE  leaked these confidential infos, as this means the class is now divided in new - better and stiffer boats - and the old ones. Better boats is good, but "one design" is destroyed. No discussion, no infos, no member vote on that. Would have been unbelievable in other one design classes, 

This is very interesting, and a bit perplexing.

ILCA created a new position on the ILCA World Council to ensure that Europe had a stronger voice. That position was filled by Alexandra Behrens, who is the German LaserKlasse President. While she is fairly new, it also means that ILCA information can be in German - and German concerns can be aired at ILCA World Council.

I agree that communication can be improved, and what you say above about the plaques is a good example of where.

That being said, there have been genuine attempts by the ILCA to spell out some of the issues about the plaques on the ILCA website. In light of the above, I don't think that it addresses your concerns.Your question of who is lying about inspections is a good one. Shall we put that to the test and try our collective best to find out?

I think that part of the problem is that too many things are considered 'commercially sensitive' and transparency suffers as a result.

I haven't dealt with all of your points above - though I'd like to, I'm out of time.

 

[tillerman]

Guy from Texas grabbing  thread “microphone” and a loop of extra wire in the same hand:

This is a thread about the ILCA withdrawing eligibility of LP built toys and the fact the ILCA is seeking new builders. 

We can have a discussion about not discussing other subjects some other time but this thread is about ILCA refusing to accept toys from the company with rights to use the trademark and ILCA seeking  a new supplier.

We cannot control the discussions between the commercial interests which World  Sailing is moderating. Maybe it will be seen as aggression by LP but the ILCA currently has no “life Boat” and is in the middle of the ocean on a boat that refuses to go to our home shore. 

We want lifejacketS and lifeboats.

We can talk about not talking some other time and we did talk to the captain in a meeting a couple weeks ago. The  ILCA President is doing a great job.

This thread is about refusing to allow use of LP boats in our contests and finding a new builder. .....

Hands “Microphone” to random poster who is eager to comment ....

What we've got here is failure to communicate...
 

 

[Bill5]

What we've got here is failure to communicate...
 

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

This video reminds me of a staff meeting in a large company, with the beleaguered office head taking body punches from the more vocal staff members. The speakers are more interested in listening to themselves than trying to understand the messages and direction of management. And - there is always the "poor communication" claims that are the bane of all large companies.  Of course, there is always room for improvement, but there is also always more than most people are aware.  And that little bastard gentleman who was asking for heads to roll and ignorantly asked "who wrote the FRAND for the Laser class" should be beaten with a wet mainsheet. I also think Jean-Luc Michon  showed a surprising lack of class with his posture and eye-rolling. If he is EurILCA's spokesperson, nobody else must have applied for that role.

The comments regarding disproportionate representation on the WC are noted, but in the event of a membership vote, that becomes moot. The Euros will get there way. Olympics or not, hopefully Jean-Luc et al can get LP to send some boats off the Continent. 

I do sense, unfortunately, that there is a bit of an underlying anti-American sentiment in all this. As a Canadian working over the years for a number of American-based global companies, I  can say it is not uncommon. Cultural differences are significant.

 

[tillerman]

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

This video reminds me of a staff meeting in a large company, with the beleaguered office head taking body punches from the more vocal staff members. The speakers are more interested in listening to themselves than trying to understand the messages and direction of management. And - there is always the "poor communication" claims that are the bane of all large companies.  Of course, there is always room for improvement, but there is also always more than most people are aware.  And that little bastard gentleman who was asking for heads to roll and ignorantly asked "who wrote the FRAND for the Laser class" should be beaten with a wet mainsheet. I also think Jean-Luc Michon  showed a surprising lack of class with his posture and eye-rolling. If he is EurILCA's spokesperson, nobody else must have applied for that role.

The comments regarding disproportionate representation on the WC are noted, but in the event of a membership vote, that becomes moot. The Euros will get there way. Olympics or not, hopefully Jean-Luc et al can get LP to send some boats off the Continent. 

I do sense, unfortunately, that there is a bit of an underlying anti-American sentiment in all this. As a Canadian working over the years for a number of American-based global companies, I  can say it is not uncommon. Cultural differences are significant.

I detect there is a certain lack of understanding and respect going both ways.

As a Brit who was involved in managing a consolidation of European and American departments into one organization for a multi-national company, I also see a lot that was familiar to me from my professional life.

You can see the cultural differences playing out in this video. And the different agendas and priorities based on different local issues and needs.

Although I have a great deal of respect for Tracy and Eric,  in retrospect it may not have been a very smart or sensitive choice to have both the President and General Manager of an international organization like this be Americans based in America (especially when most of the members are European.)

 

[Bill5]

Although I have a great deal of respect for Tracy and Eric,  in retrospect it may not have been a very smart or sensitive choice to have both the President and General Manager of an international organization like this be Americans based in America (especially when most of the members are European.)

X2

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

I've invited a few. Also have provided links on some FB pages. I'm sure you guys know a few too.  (I don't have any sock puppets, never will).

 

[torrid]

That video on the EurILCA Facebook page is the first time I have heard the recent class actions involving a rule and name change referred to as a backup plan.

 

[tillerman]

That video on the EurILCA Facebook page is the first time I have heard the recent class actions involving a rule and name change referred to as a backup plan.

Eric is a good politician. He is doing the best he can to sell the rule change to the Europeans. Didn't you like the life jacket analogy? What sailor could disagree with that?

 

[aroy210677]

Wow!! There was a lot of discomfort in that  meeting. 

Way too many rumors and frustrated folks 

You got that right, Gouv. My BP was at warp 8.

 

[aroy210677]

Hard to watch the video and have respect for the European representatives. That meeting went off the rails the minute Jean-Luc Michon was given the microphone and and fabricated a lie about not receiving an email. No apology when caught out in real time, instead his partner complained that it took like a day for her to get it. JFC, perfect example of why this has become such a mess, people more concerned about being important than in helping to solve the problem at hand. And at the end of the day, Eric made the effort to be there to, unbelievably, communicate directly to the sailors. And he gets shredded for doing it. 

You nailed it.