Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
I think their exact wording was "contingency planning" which started in 2018 when the World Sailing Olympic Equipment policies were being discussed.
ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder
- Thread starter Wess
- Start date
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
Kim Andersen answers most of the questions here: https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/05/12/kim-andersen-preparing-for-change/
The history includes a legal action, nothing to do with Lasers.
The higher authorities are governments and their legislation (Specifically EU directives) plus the IOC.
The 'authority' who 'controls' World Sailing? World Sailing's 'control' is dominated by Member Nation Authorities (MNAs) using representative democracy processes.
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greenwhiteblack
Member
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It's pretty clear that Jean Luc is facilitating if not, instigating the spread of false rumours and misinformation throughout the class associations; there is no way the various letters would've been published from the Italians, Spaniards et al without consulting Jean Luc first. My question to you Andy, has Jean Luc even proposed any other viable solution for keeping the class in the Olympics? Or has he been happy just to offer his criticism without any constructive input?
Further, shouldn't we have seen a vote being sent out by now? I'm on the committee for a district association and haven't heard anything through our communication lines yet.
mob590
New member
I just listened to the entire video posted above. Wow. Eric showed real restraint and professionalism in advancing what he believes is the best path forward. You may agree or disagree with the path, but kudos for him in discussing the issue directly with the sailors in this tough forum. I understand that there are some hard feelings all round that go back over many years, but I find the innuendo against him personally and the ILCA management of Tracy very distasteful. He was the class act in that forum as he put the class before his own comfort.
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tillerman
Super Anarchist
I agree that Eric did an excellent job of reporting on the recent negotiations and explaining the need to vote on the rule change.
But that hostility from the Europeans to the ILCA leadership looked like it was based on great frustration with the direction ILCA has been taking and must have been building for some time. I was very sad to see this. I don't remember seeing anything as dysfunctional as this in the thirty years I was a Laser class member.
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jgh66
Anarchist
Don't believe there is anti American sentiment in Europe, except for Trump and some people around him. Cultural differences? No idea.. Very calm discussion for southern Europe standards in Rose's I believe. I heard somewhere that Americans find the European way to discuss or talk very rude, while this may just be the normal way of democratic discussion here. Ever seen some discussion in European parliaments? Britain HOP Brexit discussions?
Some very sharp and clear questions came up, where I think people would have expected clear and sharp answers, and not politicians beat about the Bush. Class members that need to vote on major class rule changes, need to know all the details, so they can take a proper decision. Ilca world council may have failed to communicate properly what this is all about. Just repeating several times the same "we need the vote to stay Olympic" without going deeply into the details does not change minds. Talks about confidential stuff only makes them angry. This is not a discussion on CIA operations in north Korea. that have to stay top secret.
LPE has posted some news on the FRAND discussion on Facebook, where they try to make sailers believe that Ilca first has to sign the trademark agreement, otherwise they would sign such a FRAND contract. Any comments from Ilca on this?
LPE has posted a lot of stuff on their homepage. https://www.laserperformance.us/ilca-news Many questions of European sailers are related to these informations. When Ilca is staying quiet to properly respond on that, they make the sailers believe that this is all true, and Ilca is acting incorrectly.
Talk Ilca, inform your members, discuss. Last important News.is from may 31!
There might be other people here that can better explain what the cultural differences between US VS EUR are, maybe I've got it completely wrong.
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greenwhiteblack
Member
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Perhaps ILCA are unable to talk because of their legal advice? I completely agree that their has been a lot of shit slinging from LPE aimed at ILCA, with nothing in response from ILCA which has probably led many to believe everything LPE is saying. I've heard from a World Council member that ILCA have wanted to take the moral high ground by not engaging in a "he said, she said" press release/social media battle. However, their lack of replies may have made ILCA start to look like the bad guys.
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
It is two way communication that is the issue here. It is the responsibility of the EU reps on the World Council to raise issues on EU member's behalf.
That means asking the questions clearly.
Some of the issues raised seemed new to Eric, they seemed to surprise him. There is a big gap in the information given on the ILCA website and the questions asked at the meeting. Technically, Tracy is responsible, however (and it is a huge HOWEVER), Tracy can't be in all places at once, so it is the responsibility of the regional reps to ensure that their region's voice was heard.
Specifically, that was Jean Luc's responsibility; and to a lesser extent Alexandra's (because she is new to ILCA World Council).
It seemed very apparent that Jean Luc was sowing discord in the meeting. Raising the question of the email blindsided Eric for sure. Either Jean Luc was unaware of the impact (which I hope he was) or it was deliberate. I think Jean Luc has some very serious questions to answer about both this, and how come the rest of the ILCA did not know about these questions until the meeting?
I would say that Eric did put feelers out before the meeting, would he be at fault if he was misinformed?
That means asking the questions clearly.
Some of the issues raised seemed new to Eric, they seemed to surprise him. There is a big gap in the information given on the ILCA website and the questions asked at the meeting. Technically, Tracy is responsible, however (and it is a huge HOWEVER), Tracy can't be in all places at once, so it is the responsibility of the regional reps to ensure that their region's voice was heard.
Specifically, that was Jean Luc's responsibility; and to a lesser extent Alexandra's (because she is new to ILCA World Council).
It seemed very apparent that Jean Luc was sowing discord in the meeting. Raising the question of the email blindsided Eric for sure. Either Jean Luc was unaware of the impact (which I hope he was) or it was deliberate. I think Jean Luc has some very serious questions to answer about both this, and how come the rest of the ILCA did not know about these questions until the meeting?
I would say that Eric did put feelers out before the meeting, would he be at fault if he was misinformed?
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JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
Excellent idea. Now could you tell us how the hell to find those kids because I sure as hell don't see many volunteers coming forward. How many contested elections do you see in sport round your way? Can't remember the last one in my area.
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Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
DavidYacht
Member
Does Frand man that supply of sails and spars would also be opened up to new suppliers?
That would seem to be a step forward.
That would seem to be a step forward.
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
Chris Caldecoat's post raises some interesting issues. (Caldecoat has been very quiet over the last few months). Other than the two World Youth Champs, I can't recall LP supplying boats in ILCA since around 2011/2012. Can anyone else?
PSJ and PSA have, multiple times.
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In the scale of things, this is just one small example of many where there have been contrary statements made, the contrary versions both can't be true.
It is increasingly apparent that there has been a sustained misinformation campaign by LaserPerformance, which has successfully misinformed many Europeans. It would seem that a select few may have assisted LaserPerformance to do this. The result is for everyone to see in a full blown rift between EurILCA and ILCA.
The best way to deal with this misinformation is one item at a time.
Because there are so many, it raises the question on how best to present them to maximise reach into the EU?
The objective of this work is to mend the rift between EurILCA executive committee and ILCA World Council. A tough task, but not impossible.
I might have to increase my time spent on this a little, however it is probably worth it.
PSJ and PSA have, multiple times.
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In the scale of things, this is just one small example of many where there have been contrary statements made, the contrary versions both can't be true.
It is increasingly apparent that there has been a sustained misinformation campaign by LaserPerformance, which has successfully misinformed many Europeans. It would seem that a select few may have assisted LaserPerformance to do this. The result is for everyone to see in a full blown rift between EurILCA and ILCA.
The best way to deal with this misinformation is one item at a time.
Because there are so many, it raises the question on how best to present them to maximise reach into the EU?
The objective of this work is to mend the rift between EurILCA executive committee and ILCA World Council. A tough task, but not impossible.
I might have to increase my time spent on this a little, however it is probably worth it.
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Board skiff
Super Anarchist
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Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
It doesn't appear that anybody else is.
Normally there would be independent investigative reporters working on this, fact checking, and disseminating information.
Ideally, a meaningful attempt to deal with the misinformation this needs to happen before the opening of voting - which must be getting close.
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Board skiff
Super Anarchist
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One of the reasons your rep is so low is that you misinterpret information, get hung up on irrelevant details and obfuscate.
You are not well placed to fact check, educate and inform us on this topic. Indeed, it is somewhat patronising that you think we need putting straight and are too stupid to make an informed opinion. It is also arrogant to think that posting on here is going to somehow heal a rift between ILCA and EurILCA.
Sorry to be so blunt but we really don’t need you to “take charge”.
The question WS need to answer is why they shortlisted 4 classes for the singlehander slot, none of which have a FRAND business model and most likely none could move to by the start of August even if willing to in principle. I’m no Finn fan boy, but at least it is. FRAND class...
You are not well placed to fact check, educate and inform us on this topic. Indeed, it is somewhat patronising that you think we need putting straight and are too stupid to make an informed opinion. It is also arrogant to think that posting on here is going to somehow heal a rift between ILCA and EurILCA.
Sorry to be so blunt but we really don’t need you to “take charge”.
The question WS need to answer is why they shortlisted 4 classes for the singlehander slot, none of which have a FRAND business model and most likely none could move to by the start of August even if willing to in principle. I’m no Finn fan boy, but at least it is. FRAND class...
Wess
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #1,877
THIS!!! But alas I think the dice are cast and everyone is entrenched in their position. Only questions now is does the vote pass, and if no then what and if yes how many days till the lawsuit... either way the class I knew ain't ever going to be the same. What a shame. All for the Olympics.
Bruce Hudson
Super Anarchist
This goes beyond Sailing Academy, as indicated in my post you appear to be reacting to. My posts here are not a reflection of my normal work. This is social media, so different rules apply which include alternate interpretations, tangents and obfuscation. (Have you watched the doco 'Merchants of Doubt'?)
Respectfully, I don't think ILCA members are too stupid or "need putting straight" to make an informed opinion. In talking directly to several it is apparent that some are unaware they have been mislead by misinformation. Here's a statement made to me recently (not on SA):
The thanks referred to information that I shared with him/her which is already in the public domain.
Sailing Academy is the wrong forum to do that sort of work which is why I suggested a website. (Did you deliberately misinterpret me Sosoomii?) On second thoughts, a Facebook page might be just as good. So to answer the presumption that lead to your comment, I don't think posting here is going to heal a rift between ILCA World Council and the EurILCA executive committee. Also, I don't think there is a rift between most sailors - and those who think Eric is not working for the benefit of the class are misinformed. Particularly those who don't want FRAND seem to think that ILCA has an option. (Actually there is, however the ILCA World Council is clear that they want the class to remain Olympic, and Eric is doing his job.)
Take charge? Not sure what you think I'm thinking here - is that a joke? I'm not in charge nor have any desire to be. With better presentation of what is already known, many of the statements made and resulting questions can be addressed. Independence is important. This isn't taking charge, nor even close to it.
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I agreed with your question about the shortlisted classes for World Sailing. Having 2 or 3 existing builders makes the Laser remain the front runner. ILCA World Council is committed to retaining the Olympic status is working to make the changes.
Respectfully, I don't think ILCA members are too stupid or "need putting straight" to make an informed opinion. In talking directly to several it is apparent that some are unaware they have been mislead by misinformation. Here's a statement made to me recently (not on SA):
The thanks referred to information that I shared with him/her which is already in the public domain.
Sailing Academy is the wrong forum to do that sort of work which is why I suggested a website. (Did you deliberately misinterpret me Sosoomii?) On second thoughts, a Facebook page might be just as good. So to answer the presumption that lead to your comment, I don't think posting here is going to heal a rift between ILCA World Council and the EurILCA executive committee. Also, I don't think there is a rift between most sailors - and those who think Eric is not working for the benefit of the class are misinformed. Particularly those who don't want FRAND seem to think that ILCA has an option. (Actually there is, however the ILCA World Council is clear that they want the class to remain Olympic, and Eric is doing his job.)
Take charge? Not sure what you think I'm thinking here - is that a joke? I'm not in charge nor have any desire to be. With better presentation of what is already known, many of the statements made and resulting questions can be addressed. Independence is important. This isn't taking charge, nor even close to it.
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I agreed with your question about the shortlisted classes for World Sailing. Having 2 or 3 existing builders makes the Laser remain the front runner. ILCA World Council is committed to retaining the Olympic status is working to make the changes.
Bill5
Super Anarchist
I think the class is already being torn apart by LP ignoring their non-Euro customers and prospective customers.