ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

WGWarburton

Anarchist
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Scotland
And why the premier class in the world would get sucked into such a self destructive mess to appease WS.  I just don't get it.
 May be naive thinking but it seems to me that the Olympics (well, WS) needs the Laser more than the Laser needs the Olympics... it also seems that Laser Performance know this and that they have a strong hand (since they can walk away and still have a viable business).

 ILCA don't appear to have the support of most of their members, nor are they going the right way about winning them over... (they did not come across well at that meeting to European eyes, despite what is written here from a NA perspective).

 It seems quite possible that they are overplaying a weak hand. 

 As I've said before... if they want European support they need to win it, and evasive answers and promises are not doing so...

Cheers,

               W.

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
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846
New Zealand
ILCA don't appear to have the support of most of their members, nor are they going the right way about winning them over... (they did not come across well at that meeting to European eyes, despite what is written here from a NA perspective).
Agreed. I anticipate that the meeting is a wake up call, and expect improvements from the ILCA World Council.

That been said, solutions are more likely to come from within the European region (including Scotland!) - and certainly not New Zealand. I'm picking up on some interesting comments by Europeans who I am talking to about Jean Luc. Though understand that I am somewhat of a magnet for dissent.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
I think the class is already being torn apart by LP ignoring their non-Euro customers and prospective customers. 
I can only talk from a US club perspective and one that is a bit dated at that.  Gouv may disagree but I think if one (and he) really tries to be fair about this, the truth is...

LPE supply was far, far, far far from ideal and indeed US Laser sailing had to be somewhat hurt by the problems with LPE, but, and its a big but, those issues pale both in significance and scope, and in fact were insignificant compared to what is happening to the class now.  If you wanted a new Laser in the US and had half a brain there were ways to get one.  Please don't misunderstand I am not saying they were near ideal and for sure LPE sucked and still sucks sh*t as a supplier for the US but it didn't and will not cause nearly the same extent of a mess and fracture that this is causing.  And...

And its a big and and one I am sad about... ILCA has been clear that this ain't about fixing a supply problem... its all about the Olympics and bowing down to WS (at the expense of the vast majority of Laser sailors IMHO).

Further, if ILCA was just fixing a supply problem and doing the things typical in many supply agreements they could offer guarantees to European sailors that they would not be hurt.

Oh and yes. YES!  What @WGWarburton said... "the Olympics (well, WS) needs the Laser more than the Laser needs the Olympics."

 

jgh66

Anarchist
oesn't appear that anybody else is.

Normally there would be independent investigative reporters working on this, fact checking, and disseminating information.

Ideally, a meaningful attempt to deal with the misinformation this needs to happen before the opening of voting - which must be getting close
Good idea. Maybe we should try to get some jounalists to find out what is true. LPE and ILCA won't discuss it with us here on the forum, I'm afraid. Maybe they have more power to get answers, find out what is true and inform the sailing community. 

 
Just seen on the EurILCA facebook page: 
Andy  (and others). I am genuinely worried that your team (and possibly your advisors) do not have a lot of experience with FRAND.   This was very unconvincing and I am an ILCA supporter.

I dont think the process will convince or reassure members.

1. The nub of your concerns is the supply and service situation in NA.  I think its okay to be transparent about that. Both to gain class support and have a decent legal position.

2. Describing the motive for changing the rule as a requirement to comply with a vague FRAND policy from WS (Its possible WS misunderstand how FRAND works in the real world as much as Eric....but I think they know very well how it works) is not a winning strategy that I would recommend.  

Lots more in this thread to smile inwardly at, but the overall situation is a bit sad. 

I suggest

1. ILCA tells WS that it is an entity with a constitution and , like it or not, they cannot exclude the elected board. Each member of the board can be asked to sign an NDA......but its nonsense to suggest that the documents are confidential and cannot be shared with the very people you are negotiating with.

2. A class administrator/class secy who may be extremely good at his day job, may not be the right person as point person for negotiation with the other parties and communicating the results of those negotiations with the members.   This is worse than watching reruns of May at question time 

All the best.....wishing you good fortune.

IPL

 
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I've heard that the vote may not be going ahead now due to the poor reception at the Roses forum, and the belief that the vote will not pass as a result however, my World Council source was speculating as he hadn't heard much since the Roses meeting. 

That could be true since no word of a vote other than that mentioned in the meeting has be released. Eric said himself that the vote would need to be out by this weekend in order for the results to be finalised by August. 

If that's the case, it would appear that LP have played their hand much better than everyone else, and will all come down to them agreeing to the FRAND terms. 

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
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New Zealand
An important point here, there were three representatives from the ILCA World Council who spoke at the EU Masters meeting. 

  • Eric Faust, ILCA Executive Secretary
  • Jean Luc Michon, EurILCA representative, immediate past Chief Measurer, member of the Technical and Measurement Committee.
  • Alexandra Behrens (who spoke briefly), Member at large (a special ILCA World Council position recently created to increase European representation).

Also present was Andy Roy (North American representative.)

It is a mistake to make this all about Eric, it wasn't. Eric flew halfway around the world with the intention to inform and to answer questions to the best of his ability. In hindsight, this was a very good thing as it has exposed the true degree of differences which only a select few knew about. It was obvious that the extent of those differences were new to Eric. Also of note is that Jean Luc made an effort to return especially for the meeting. (Andy and Alexandra were already there, competing).

Now that EurILCA posted the above video on their Facebook page, there is a public record of what took place for all to see. I am confident that the three ILCA World Council members who spoke all understand that it was an opportunity to put forward their best efforts on behalf of the Laser class.

I am also sure that because there is a public recording, that there will be analysis of not only what each member of the ILCA World Council said, and that the sailor's statements and the resulting questions will be given serious consideration by the ILCA World Council.

In the mean-time, it would be great to have the statements made fact checked against what information is already public. (This may be of help to the volunteers who run the ILCA).

 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
Andy  (and others). I am genuinely worried that your team (and possibly your advisors) do not have a lot of experience with FRAND.   This was very unconvincing and I am an ILCA supporter.

I dont think the process will convince or reassure members.

1. The nub of your concerns is the supply and service situation in NA.  I think its okay to be transparent about that. Both to gain class support and have a decent legal position.

2. Describing the motive for changing the rule as a requirement to comply with a vague FRAND policy from WS (Its possible WS misunderstand how FRAND works in the real world as much as Eric....but I think they know very well how it works) is not a winning strategy that I would recommend.  

Lots more in this thread to smile inwardly at, but the overall situation is a bit sad. 

I suggest

1. ILCA tells WS that it is an entity with a constitution and , like it or not, they cannot exclude the elected board. Each member of the board can be asked to sign an NDA......but its nonsense to suggest that the documents are confidential and cannot be shared with the very people you are negotiating with.

2. A class administrator/class secy who may be extremely good at his day job, may not be the right person as point person for negotiation with the other parties and communicating the results of those negotiations with the members.   This is worse than watching reruns of May at question time 

All the best.....wishing you good fortune.

IPL
This. Plus many. 

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
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Charleston, SC
It is two way communication that is the issue here. It is the responsibility of the EU reps on the World Council to raise issues on EU member's behalf.

That means asking the questions clearly. 

Some of the issues raised seemed new to Eric, they seemed to surprise him. There is a big gap in the information given on the ILCA website and the questions asked at the meeting. Technically, Tracy is responsible, however (and it is a huge HOWEVER), Tracy can't be in all places at once, so it is the responsibility of the regional reps to ensure that their region's voice was heard.

Specifically, that was Jean Luc's responsibility; and to a lesser extent Alexandra's (because she is new to ILCA World Council).

It seemed very apparent that Jean Luc was sowing discord in the meeting. Raising the question of the email blindsided Eric for sure. Either Jean Luc was unaware of the impact (which I hope he was) or it was deliberate. I think Jean Luc has some very serious questions to answer about both this, and how come the rest of the ILCA did not know about these questions until the meeting?

I would say that Eric did put feelers out before the meeting, would he be at fault if he was misinformed?
Here's a summary of the conference call I think you are referring to?  Not taken by me, but from a trusted source who posted this on a laser specific site.

[SIZE=11.5pt]"To those who don't have 65 extra minutes to spend:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Eric Faust: "...a lot of space where the parties are right now"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]So no "guarantee" for a 1 August agreement, and because very little time is left, [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]a membership vote is coming up within days.[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] Interesting to see how the rule change will be formulated. ILCA's preference is that the name won't change but the new builders would be licensed by the trademark holder. Name change is (still) a "backup plan".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Jean-Luc's first comment boils down to "I'm trying to do something". Also, whining and useless quibbling about some email message. Shouldn't do this in public.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Italian guy takes up the problem with PSA boats from a few years back. It's an LP distraction vehicle which some people really seem to think has something to do with the issue(s) at hand. "Laser Performance wants to save the class". Oh my. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]British guy underlines that the Olympic and ILCA communication issues are separate. Good.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]German guy says LP is hard to deal with, but we shouldn't "upset them more" by the "threat" of name change. As if nasty guys turned nice if we only treated them nice. Sure.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Thirty[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] new manufacturers interested! (Of which most will drop out, but still.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Eric: the class would "probably" survive outside the Olympics, but a lot of activity would "dry up", especially in Asia.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt](I have a very hard time understanding Jean-Luc through his heavy French accent.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Eric repeats again and again that it's the WS that's running the current negotiations. "No one has refused to sit down with LP".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Someone questions current ILCA/WS communication because of the apparent disagreement of WS okaying the name change a couple months back. ILCA went a little too far by saying publicly that WS supports everything they do, and Eric admitted that.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Alessandro Castelli: "since 2013, IlCA has tried to push LP out of the Laser business and favor Australia". For a reason, maybe?Resignations within the ILCA leadership were also called for.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Eric: the Laser class FRAND policy has been developed with the builders since last November, but "only recently has LP realized that it's a real thing".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Someone keeps pushing the "illegal PSA boats" thing. Eric says it actually concerned only about 200 boats over a 6-month period, and it was [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]LP itself[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] that proposed the solution that was used! "It was a good process and improved the quality of our boat".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Composite topmasts were initially built only by Southern Spars because LP didn't find a manufacturer who'd build to the required tolerances.. They now use Seldén.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]On the question, "why do you treat LP and PSA differently": PSA responds, LP doesn't. Also, turns out that LP has refused inspection since 2015. Not a recent thing.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Eric reminds that the court case that started in 2013 is still going on (or phase 2 thereof), and that itself is making it harder for the parties (LP vs PSA) to agree on things."[/SIZE]

Things are not looking good at all for an Aug 1 solution....Hang on Tillerman!

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
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My apologies for posting a chart that belongs in Political Anarchy. I was attempting to make a joke about bias of reporting and was too lazy to make up a humorous chart with scuttlebutt, sailing world, Laser sailor, Laser forum, eurolaser facebook, LP Facebook, Laser  world and etc... 

it could have been pretty funny 
I was waiting to see a similar chart for Gantt, Gouvernail, Wess, IPLore, Robbie B, sosoomii, greenwhiteblack, lemon pepper and the gang...

And if anybody wants to add tillerman I hope I would make it into the Analytical but Totally Biased category.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Did anybody receive a ballot from ILCA  today?? 

I have seen nothing describing the exact proposed rule change or proposed ballot wording.  

and, this morning, there are still no boats at the local dealer. 
Hahaha. Give em a break. Still time if they really do want to push the issue.  Sad though that not only is nobody moving towards compromise... its sadder still that nobody has given themselves or others any way to back out of the mess gracefully.  I fear that no matter what its going to end ugly and that is a shame because I really do think that no matter which side of this you are on, they are all good people trying to do their best in a bad situation.

I don't see any path out of these woods that doesn't end badly for some.  Hope I am wrong.   :(

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,202
1,717
Charleston, SC
I was waiting to see a similar chart for Gantt, Gouvernail, Wess, IPLore, Robbie B, sosoomii, greenwhiteblack, lemon pepper and the gang...

And if anybody wants to add tillerman I hope I would make it into the Analytical but Totally Biased category.
Whoa there!  I don not associate or claim any membership with "gangs".  Nor do I "ride dirty."

 

Bill5

Right now
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Western Canada
Which, if any, of the following are actually on the same page?

World Sailing, LP, PSA, ILCA, EURILCA, Laser sailors

 
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RobbieB

Super Anarchist
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1,717
Charleston, SC
Which, if any, of the following are actually on the same page?

World Sailing, LP, PSA, ILCA, Laser sailors
I'm thinking WS the ILCA, PSA and some ILCA members have similar ideas of how to move forward.  Some ILCA members, LP and EURLCA are on a totally different page.  The only possible way for everyone to come together is going to require some major concessions by one of the groups.  It would appear no one is willing to make concessions at this time.  That's just my current perspective.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
I'm thinking WS the ILCA, PSA and some ILCA members have similar ideas of how to move forward.  Some ILCA members, LP and EURLCA are on a totally different page.  The only possible way for everyone to come together is going to require some major concessions by one of the groups.  It would appear no one is willing to make concessions at this time.  That's just my current perspective.
Two problems I think.

One is that there is no three separate groups 1.) EurILCA, 2.) ILCA and 3.) laser sailors.  To  move forward with their plan ILCA has to take a vote including all those groups as one and the vote passes or it doesn't.  If it does pass you still may have a class fracture and for sure ILCA and WS (and likely PSA and any new builders) are going to get dragged into court by LPE and end up fighting a long expensive battle.  There may not even be new builders willing to step into that litigation mess.  No winners.  Misery for all.

Two is that if the vote fails or the ILCA WC try to back down and agree LPE terms, they (ILCA WC) have to die on their sword and somehow vote LPE back in as a builder and then all or most US ILCA members are pissed at ILCA management who are already not having the support of EurILCA members so they are forced out and the LPE supply problem for US continues.  LPEs wins but misery for many not from Europe.  That may also result in a class fracture different (US leaving) than what folks are currently worried about (EU leaving).

I don't see a path out of the woods.  They all dug themselves so deeply into a hole that they can't get back out.  At the beginning I thought ILCA had this nailed.  As in game over for LPE. Wow was I wrong. I never saw the European's being happy with LPE thing coming, and I didn't really think ILCA was going to make this about WS, Olympics and FRAND, and abandon SMOD and simply fixing a supply problem.

 
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