Illegal C420 at Nationals

Gouvernail

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It sure would be nice if the reasons were described and if there is an approved "fix" how that fix can be accomplished and how approval of the repairs and re-certification can be obtained.

Or if the ruling is the boats are permanently banned.....describe why.

My biggest concern is the kids who have the boats. Those kids didn't build the boats and now they could have a problem.

it also looks as though somebody is already stepping up and trying to set up charters for the kids who have the banned boats...That is truly fine news and whoever is doing that deserves to be recognized. 

anyway...If there is a fix and any of the Texas kids have the banned boats, I will eagerly shove those boats in  ahead of whatever else I am doing so we can get them back out on the water. 

 

Gouvernail

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I hope the banning has to do with panel stiffness differences rather than building methods. Hand lamination will always have a limit of consistency. A well designed mechanical infusion system could ( IF DONE RIGHT) create much more identical to one another products .  

And>>>> For the builder, there isn't a person with sensitive fingers and eyes who can tell while the infusion of going wrong. When machines build junk they really do build junk. 

 

European Bloke

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frostbit

Anarchist
As a Board Member at junior sailing program, we purchased 6 brand new boats this spring. All apparently have this infused construction issue. I have 12 juniors who are screwed. 

Class rules don’t prohibit this construction method, but they do say any change to construction method and forms must be approved; which, cleArly they were not .

any thoughts on how to deal with this are welcome  

thanks  

 

frostbit

Anarchist
It's hard to see how you fix this.  If you have a bunch of boats that are just better built what do you do about that?  Decide a fair weight penalty?  Glad I'm not trying to sort that one out.

Volunteer class officers, big respect for all your thankless efforts.
Boats weigh in and external forms and measurements are all good. It is construction methodology that is in question. 

 

European Bloke

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Boats weigh in and external forms and measurements are all good. It is construction methodology that is in question. 
I wasn't suggesting there was a weight issue, only that a weight penalty is a common way of 'punishing' illegal boats to make everything 'fair'.  That is if the original problem can't be resolved, which sounds like the case here.  So how much extra weight makes everything fair?

The other option is the builder takes them all back and supplies what was ordered, which might be the long term option.  These ones are then landfill.

Italian optimist builder has just taken a big hit on this.  A whole bunch of illegal boats to be returned from all over the world, and made good, at the builders expense.  I don't know the exact issue there, but it is fixable in that case.

 
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if they're brand new boats then the MFG should absolutely take them back and redo it. I'd argue they should pay for the charter as well, but I'd settle for new hulls - even if i had to build them out (actually... I'd prefer to build them out/put the fittings on).

 

WestCoast

Super Anarchist
As a Board Member at junior sailing program, we purchased 6 brand new boats this spring. All apparently have this infused construction issue. I have 12 juniors who are screwed. 

Class rules don’t prohibit this construction method, but they do say any change to construction method and forms must be approved; which, cleArly they were not .

any thoughts on how to deal with this are welcome  

thanks  
Check your PM

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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Inevitable when the wallets come come out to play.

"How much would it cost to make my boat (substitute "my kids' boat") enough faster to win?"

IMHO the new infused 420 hulls are likely to be a lot more durable, and lot more cost-effective in the long run for programs that have the coin to buy them. But throwing them into a one-design class of personally owned boats makes little sense unless there is some way of integrating them into the class rules and keeping things fair.

FB- Doug

 

Gouvernail

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Do the infused boats actually sail differently? Is the panel stiffness different?

There isn’t a reason in the world an infused laminate cannot be designed to have the same panel stiffness and weight distribution as a hand laid laminate .

in fact, I bet the manufacturing processes for the hand laid boats vary greatly. 

Some may wet out the materials on a separate table. Some may wet out the gelcoat and work resin up through the fiberglass. Some may place the glass against the gelcoat and soak the resin through that glass. Some may do a combination of the above. 

Some may have counters on the resin pumps and use a defined amount of resin on each piece of glass. Others may do it by eye. 

Some may use thickness guages. Others may use tinted resins and color chart comparisons.

Unless the infused boats are outside the expected ranges on weight and panel stiffness, I see no reason they cannot share the race course with hand laid boats. 

 

Steam Flyer

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Do the infused boats actually sail differently? Is the panel stiffness different?

There isn’t a reason in the world an infused laminate cannot be designed to have the same panel stiffness and weight distribution as a hand laid laminate .

in fact, I bet the manufacturing processes for the hand laid boats vary greatly. 

Some may wet out the materials on a separate table. Some may wet out the gelcoat and work resin up through the fiberglass. Some may place the glass against the gelcoat and soak the resin through that glass. Some may do a combination of the above. 

Some may have counters on the resin pumps and use a defined amount of resin on each piece of glass. Others may do it by eye. 

Some may use thickness guages. Others may use tinted resins and color chart comparisons.

Unless the infused boats are outside the expected ranges on weight and panel stiffness, I see no reason they cannot share the race course with hand laid boats. 
I sailed one and checked it out pretty thoroughly at one of the recent youth sailing bashes (a Zim). The hulls are definitely stiffer, I'd expect them to be faster in most conditions by a small amount, in heavy air holding their tune better, and the biggest speed difference is that if you can discretely pump them up onto a plane they jump forward very happily.

But I think the speed edge is quite small, the biggest difference is that they are likely to be a lot more durable.

I could be wrong, most classes the stiffer hulls are desirable as faster. But the 420 is such a tubby little thing there isn't much to work with.

FB- Doug

 

frostbit

Anarchist
I sailed one and checked it out pretty thoroughly at one of the recent youth sailing bashes (a Zim). The hulls are definitely stiffer, I'd expect them to be faster in most conditions by a small amount, in heavy air holding their tune better, and the biggest speed difference is that if you can discretely pump them up onto a plane they jump forward very happily.

But I think the speed edge is quite small, the biggest difference is that they are likely to be a lot more durable.

I could be wrong, most classes the stiffer hulls are desirable as faster. But the 420 is such a tubby little thing there isn't much to work with.

FB- Doug
Don't think Zim boats are impacted...

 

WestCoast

Super Anarchist
I sailed one and checked it out pretty thoroughly at one of the recent youth sailing bashes (a Zim). The hulls are definitely stiffer, I'd expect them to be faster in most conditions by a small amount, in heavy air holding their tune better, and the biggest speed difference is that if you can discretely pump them up onto a plane they jump forward very happily.

But I think the speed edge is quite small, the biggest difference is that they are likely to be a lot more durable.

I could be wrong, most classes the stiffer hulls are desirable as faster. But the 420 is such a tubby little thing there isn't much to work with.

FB- Doug
Zim boats don't have anything to do with the situation.  Another manufacturer produced boats that were out of spec by class rules.  Zim did not.

Gouv - I think when the issue comes to light, you'll see it's a lot more than just a different way that the boats were produced  :(

 

dgmckim

Anarchist
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Zim boats don't have anything to do with the situation.  Another manufacturer produced boats that were out of spec by class rules.  Zim did not.

Gouv - I think when the issue comes to light, you'll see it's a lot more than just a different way that the boats were produced  :(
yikes

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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Zim boats don't have anything to do with the situation.  Another manufacturer produced boats that were out of spec by class rules.  Zim did not.

Gouv - I think when the issue comes to light, you'll see it's a lot more than just a different way that the boats were produced  :(
Ah, OK, I misunderstood the problem.

Thanks!

FB- Doug

 
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